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Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
A Witness to Freedom: The Path and Pilgramage to Liberation w/ Tonetta Landis- Aina
Have you ever sat in a pew and felt unseen? Or have you ever felt that your spiritual journey was at odds with your deeply-held identity? Join us as we engage with Pastor Tonetta of the Table Church, who generously shares her inspiring journey from Black Baptist churches in North Carolina to becoming a pastor herself. She lets us into her world, giving us a glimpse of how she reconciled her sexuality and her faith, setting her on the path to pastoral ministry. Her openness about the importance of scripture, leaps of faith, and her approach to different interpretations of faith will leave you enlightened.
Imagine a church where all are welcome, a space that embraces everyone regardless of who they are or where they come from. Pastor Tonetta paints that picture as she explores the issue of creating sustainable, affirming, and inclusive spaces within the Black church tradition. As we navigate through this discussion, she sheds light on the legacy of Hush Harbor Christianity and the challenges faced in having these conversations in predominantly white spaces. You'll also learn about the prophetic witness of the Black church and its pivotal role in genuine liberation and flourishing.
It's no surprise that Pastor Tonetta is a force to reckon with. As we journey further, we examine the impact of the Black womanist tradition on her theological and philosophical life. Her insights on accepting non-binary identities, community, accountability, and personal transformation are deeply moving. We wrap up with Pastor Tonetta sharing unique wisdom she has garnered from her journey, and her words to live by. So prepare to be inspired as we traverse this journey of courage, faith, and ultimate freedom.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
From the other side of toxic Christianity. I found myself faced with one question Now what this podcast is about that question? We have conversations with folks who are asking themselves the same things. We're picking up the pieces of a fractured and fragmented faith. We're finding treasure in what the church called trash, beauty and solidarity in people and places we were told to fear, reject and dismiss. I'm Tamise Spencer Helms and this is Life After Leaven. What's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Leaven. I'm your host, tamise Spencer Helms, and I'm joined by Pastor Tanetta of the Table Church. I'm going to have Pastor Tanetta introduce themselves to you and then we're going to jump into today's episode. Like, I'm super, super excited for you to find out what's happening in DC. It's going to be dope. So welcome Tanetta. Tell us who you are, what you do, where you're from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, my name is Tanetta Landis-Ina. I have been in DC for 19 years but originally from North Carolina. And yeah, I am one of those like proud Southerners who's not so sure about what it means to be this close to the Mason-Dixon line and yet like kind of has come to love, like larger city living. Yeah, and I've been pastoring for the past five or six years something like that in the past a year and a half at the Table Church.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited because we're going to jump into the Table Church how you started it, what you all do. But first I just want to ask you you are clearly an affirming and also a queer pastor, so I'm wondering about how you got to this place. Were you always in that place or was there a moment for you where things shifted and you began to enter into that and become an affirming queer pastor? What was life like before you kind of got there, or were you always there?
Speaker 2:I really want to say I woke up like this. But I did not wake up like this. Yeah, I grew up in kind of I'll just call them Black Baptist churches. They are not monolithic, but I grew up in Black Baptist churches in Greensboro, north Carolina, and kind of the rural areas outside of Raleigh, derm, where a lot of my family is from. Churches that were, I mean really, you know, are still in many ways my kind of heart language Churches, speak my heart language.
Speaker 2:But you know we're not affirming, was not very clear what women could do, especially in terms of pastoral ministry, and I, you know, somewhere in like early adolescence, realized like hmm, I'm noticing the wrong body parts and what do I do about that?
Speaker 2:And I was also one of those very like earnest little Black girls that I told at first I realized that I told my youth pastor and I told my mom and it's happened with me, we got to pray it away and I was on board for all of that until actually I came to DC in 04 and kind of realized that decade long plan was not working out for me in terms of things like mental health, emotional health and so, of course, metastrate Girl and then like who is not Christian, who ended up kind of asking me like why is this so bad, even though I mean, we were just friends. But even like naming some of what I was feeling like she was like I don't even get what you're talking about In terms of why this is such a big deal. And that opened up this process for me of like re looking at scripture and talking to pastors and all of that. So I started coming out, but my eye opening moment in terms of pastoral ministry was when I continued to go to a conservative church and as an out person and then got pushed out and I was like, oh right, everybody does not have access to the same resources in the church, the same kinds of pastoring, Like I was just like I need to think about seminary, I need to think about some kind of previous calling stuff that had come up for me. So, yeah, those are kind of some of my turning point moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's really helpful because I think about how it was. I came out late. I was a late, older gay, so I was a baby gay. But I was like mid to late 30s when I came out and thinking about how it really wasn't as much of a shift because I knew how much I loved God and I knew how much like I love scripture and I loved Jesus and had a relationship.
Speaker 1:So the part that was more of a conversion for me was actually just being like hey, I'm okay, I can be queer and Christian because here I am. There was only one of those identities that I had ever not lived into. And so when you get this kind of freedom from God to say like, no, I want you to live into the fullness of who you are. It wasn't hard for me to transition to being queer Christian or an affirming Christian. It wasn't that hard. Do you feel like that was kind of similar for you Because you had done the front end trying to fight this thing, and then it was just like I'm done, so you go to seminary right after that.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. Okay, there was a period where I taught high school English for eight years when I was kind of like out, but in conservative churches in that in between, because I had no idea what calling looked like. I mean, I think for me a lot of this has been a journey with scripture honestly, and grappling with sacred and not inerrant. That has been really really important to this journey and that that was the longer part of this.
Speaker 2:I would say like to really be okay with, okay. I'm holding faith in a different way. I am admitting that I am making decisions, Like I've always think, like faith is kind of like a relationship, Like some of it is falling in love, Some of it is like I'm deciding to stay with this person right. Like. So there are leaps of faith that you know that are intentionally made.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, I've never heard anybody say it like that. That was really, that was really sacred and not inerrant, because I think a lot of folks are kind of landing there Like they can keep and we'll talk about later what we keep but they can keep the things that we're life giving without making the whole thing have to be like the inerrant word of God. I really appreciate that. So tell me, tell me a little bit, like what motivated Table Church? How did it get started? Like, tell me that story.
Speaker 2:So I should clarify this. So I started Resurrection City, okay, which was into Table Church. So my pastoral journey is basically I was ordained at this dope black church, affirming church in DC right after I came out of seminary and just kind of looked around and realized like the kind of church that I'm interested in, like that kind of non-denomy because the Baptist churches I came from are non-denomy, honestly, they were indeed really pervy with the Baptist, yeah, right, but you know, that kind of non-denomy like kind of less liturgical, very justice oriented, like I really wanted to be in churches that were trying to do justice, which is all I'm not, that's not an easy thing to do but where it looks like making real attempts toward that and we're affirming, yeah, I couldn't find that like that combination of things, which there are lots of amazing things happening in DC, but I really wanted that combination. And so I started talking to people and realized I wasn't alone in that and that's how kind of Resurrection City was born, which is I always call it.
Speaker 2:It was kind of this Hush Harbor experiment, which is Hush Harpers were these communities that were trying to be, you know, at work very much outside of the Plantation Gaze, the White Gaze open to anybody who was interested in liberation. That was true of Resurrection City, but very much thinking about. How do we talk about systems of domination and how do we talk about having community across divides Like how do?
Speaker 2:we talk about these kinds of things in affirming space, in Christian space, but the plan was for that church to launch in 2020. And that was not a good time. Anyway, long story short, we did some amazing things and then I realized I burning out my leadership is not a thing I want to do. So we talked to the leaders and we decided to merge with this community in DC called the Table Church, which has had its own journey and has come to this really amazing place that aligned really well with the kinds of things Resurrection City was interested in.
Speaker 2:So, out of the story, the Table Church itself was founded about a decade ago. Okay, and it's interesting because it's had this history like there's. It's always been somewhat experimental but it did have a little bit of evangelical flavor. So I think it's been interesting in that it over that decade. This happens with every church where it settles and lands, and in the past couple of years that settling and landing has been much more in a how do we think outside of the imagination of evangelicalism? How do we think about community that does not center white comfort and yet is very inclusive of white folks and other? Well, so I think that's been fun and it does feel like a continual experiment of you know, how do you, how do you do something subversive that is also subsist sustainable? Yeah, that is, you know, this amazing place that we're. We're in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm continually fascinated by the imagination of people who are kind of like I don't want to, some of us are rejects, some of us are are exiles, you know, but the imagination of folks who are saying like we have to, we have to build something completely new. So, hearing stories like this, I'm actually really interested in what it looks like to say yet we're gonna, we're going to be inclusive of inclusive of white folks, but not center them. I mean, did you guys face any, were there issues with that in terms of making that shift? I mean, what kinds of things did you implement to kind of set that in?
Speaker 2:I mean honestly, we're still in the journey. I think what helped is before I came on and probably I wouldn't have come on before this is the other pastor on staff who is a white, straight man had already done a lot of work around. We're gonna be clear in the space. We are clearly affirming we are clearly anti-racist and justice oriented and putting all the structures in place around those things and we are clearly a place that centers the margins. I think I was already coming into a space that like was sharing those things and so I think if that felt uncomfortable for folks, like very uncomfortable for folks, those folks didn't stay around. But I think we're still thinking about like how to deal with. There is like an innate when you're used to something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that that's everybody. That's if you haven't been centered and you're just like used to that, yeah, and there are folks who've always been centered and they're just used to that and it's not conscious even that they're a level that's. I think this is the worst part of white supremacy is the way it gets inside of you, right? The colonization of the mind, the body, the emotions and all of that. I think that is, you know, something that will take a good amount of time to like, work through and figure out.
Speaker 1:I'm wondering about that Like our deep. So I've got a couple of questions popping in my brain. I want to think about which one I want to go with, Because I'm thinking about I've had some interactions with like sort of like these capitulations of evangelicals that are led by white men who maybe have not entered into the space of anti racism or dealt with anti blackness that is inherent in whiteness. I'm wondering, though, like when you think about what it means to invite people to this church or what, what people who are deconstructing can do to sort of deal with that, what would be some steps they could take. Like I think there are a lot of people who are like I'm not evangelical anymore, but they haven't done this work, sort of the stuff that that Resurrection City was champion, Like how do you, how do you suggest folks who might even be listening, who are, like, definitely deconstructed I'm on the verge of atheism Right, Like I think one of the arguments that I've been making has been like, unless you've sat at the feet of people of color who have rejected whiteness but still love God, like I think it's premature to deconstruct into atheism.
Speaker 1:I think. I think, at the end of the day, you've still not allowed yourself to be open to learning from people of color. And so how would you like if you were talking to a person who was like saying I'm interested in no longer being evangelical, I don't believe in anerancy, these types of things. What would be the first step for a person Like if they were going to to say, okay, well, I want to begin to maybe decolonize and not just deconstruct.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, that's a huge question. Okay, so a few things. I think one. I think the first step is to realize that Christianity is very large and evangelicalism is this tiny part of it. In the world over, people hold theologies in different ways, practice in different ways and are still Christian. So to come out of this tiny fold, you can go toward atheism, yes, but there's all these other ways. There are mystical ways of practicing, there's this long social justice tradition and that underside of kind of colonizing, christianity has always been there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, In some way whether it's hush harbors or base communities in Latin America or you go back to the monastic tradition, desert tradition and the early part of Christianity, it's always been there. So I think knowing that inside of faith there are these like really exciting options and opportunities is important. I think considering and being humble about the reality that often this is my experience I think people of color often deconstruct from kind of toxic religion in different ways, because you know there cannot be a flight into science when science has been used against you Exactly. It's going to be a flight into the rational when those things have been used against you and when you've you know. I think of, like the mystical experiences of somebody like Harriet Tubman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Come on.
Speaker 2:Cannot be explained, but I think for people of color who are like yep, the dogs are after me and something happened, it is not so easy to let go of faith, indeed. So I think that that experience of like humility, and considering that there are lots of kinds of ways to be Christian and that deconstruction does not just look one way or need to follow a white trajectory, is really, really important.
Speaker 1:Well, can you talk a little bit about what your particular like when you think about giving a message or you think about if you're going to speak on a Sunday, what goes into that for you Like what things? What things build a sermon for you now that are different from, from maybe before.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, that's good. So I would say, I mean, most of my preaching time has been in my after, if you will.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:I think a lot about. You know what does it mean to create popular theology? Theology that is not just one person sitting in a room at a desk reading some books or studying you know ancient languages Like what does it mean to practice communally? I think that has become much more important to me. I think I have, am learning. This is a learning still for me to listen to my body as I prep messages and think about like the Holy Spirit and how she is present inside of me and leading me in my emotions. I think it's been also really important so that I am moving my tendency.
Speaker 2:I love a good intellectual sermon, but I'm learning to move away from that into that feel more embodied and things that feel more like. Here's my intuition, here's my question. Let's wrestle with that together and I might be very wrong, right? I think I have some good news here. But you also have to know that the Spirit is speaking to you and that this is a communal thing. I've heard it said a number of times that you know when Jews gather, they don't study scripture by themselves. Like very much this thing that they, you know, hold sacred and they wrestle around, but it is not a oh, you know something? It's like nope, I'm going to argue with you, I'm going to push back against you, you're going to push back against me until something is created that we find life in.
Speaker 2:And I think that is what I hope is happening when I preach and prepare sermons. I think one thing of the table church has just been interesting is, you know, it's trying to figure out what are the practices that we need for the kind of community we need. And one thing we've talked about some is call and response and I don't really that just in the, you know, preaching moment.
Speaker 2:I know the community. How can there be call and response? I get resurrection sitting. We would always have talk. We call it talk back time. So after the sermon there was like I'm ready, go, what did you hear? What did you think was messed up? What did you like? How can you always have that kind of dialogical moment on a Sunday? So the people are learning to listen to themselves and to hear themselves and to hear each other and to hear the spirit, beyond kind of hierarchy really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is your first time on my show. But when something hits, when Holy Spirit hits, I just take a minute and let it hang before I move on. Because, like to me, that is absolutely profound to hear that a leader in any sort of church setting would actually prioritize being didactic and like conversational and maybe I'm wrong, what do you think I mean? The only time honestly in Christianity I've heard that happened is with Jesus, where he asked, like, what do the scriptures say? Like, how do you read them? And to see that modeled in a church, I think it would be so refreshing for people I don't, like, I think that's very rare.
Speaker 1:So that brings me to like a geographical question. Do you see, you're from North Carolina, right, and DC? My partner went to Gallaudet. So, like, been in DC, been around, it's a different vibe. I mean, there is just a lot of inclusion in the times that I've been there. I'm not from there, but been there, okay. So let's you know, the people that are needing what table church, what resurrection city brought to the table are all over the country. Do you see, like soil in the South, like soil in places like North Carolina, for something like that? Like, how would something like that even begin to blossom in a place that's not so metro and city? If there's a question making sense, like yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that there is.
Speaker 2:So I have actually one of my best friends been in politics in North Carolina for a while and he's a pastor and, you know, is it involved in things like I think it's the new self Democrats and these like organizations that are, you know, toward the left, and I see that same thing happening in religious spaces and I think I mean this is not untrue, I think in many, many places in the United States, but I think it's probably uniquely true in the South. These are just suspicions, but I think that sustainability issue is, I think, probably even larger when you have more, let's say, the kinds of folks who might feel at home in that community are maybe less out and less able to do things like volunteer for the you know sustainability community or may have less resources to give. So I think those are the, I think the opportunity is there, the resource and yeah, but yeah there's again, particularly when you add in edges of we are for, or primarily accountable to, folks who are black, indigenous and people of color, I think that you run up against that.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's what happened with the Reznor city is figuring out sustainability is really difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a whole nother podcast. Okay, another thought question, thought that I've been wrestling with and haven't found the right person to ask this to, but I think you're the person. So I've been thinking a lot about the black church tradition and the legacy of like you're saying, like the Hush Harbor Christianity, this sort of like ways that the enslaved converted Christianity to themselves in a way, like they were, like. I'll take this, I'm leaving the rest. I'm thinking about the black church today. So when you think of like the black church and it's unfortunate that the pictures that I see are are mainly the people that have platforms in my mind when I think about black church, do you think the black church is in danger of losing the legacy If it is not affirming an accepting of queer folk?
Speaker 2:I mean that is, that is so I yeah, I mean for me there's not a lot of, I think, to stop it being affirming. I think is a portrayal of principles of liberation. That is me I know that other people might disagree with that and that, again, I think the black churches that are living into the black church tradition need to survive. Like that is a really important witness in the United States and I do think, to talk about genuine liberation and flourishing and shalom and all of those things.
Speaker 2:I think to stop at this place of saying, yep, some people don't get to live into the reality of their bodies, some people don't get to express, kind of their erotic energy. Some people are essentially like it's still okay if my boot is on some people's necks right, as long as your boot is not on mine, and I think that that's why I feel like it's a portrayal. So the answer there is yes, I mean, but I think the same thing is true of churches where women are not fully incorporated and the same thing is true in affirming spaces where people who are not able-bodied or disabled are not fully included, like that edge of, like the prophetic witness is around, always including the marginalized and centering those people, and I think we are all in many ways on that edge. So I will say I feel some compassion for folks who, let's say, in that in black church tradition, who are still struggling, because I think I'm sure I'm on the edge of that in some way as well.
Speaker 1:That's really fair. I think it's been kind of hard to navigate having that conversation because it's kind of family business and I typically find myself in a lot of white spaces and I really don't want to talk about it in white spaces. It's like, no, that's family business, that's stuff that we talk about alone. But I am feeling that pain of like hey, the thing about the black church was its prophetic witness against this empire. So to finally get place and to finally get some stuff and to turn around and perpetuate the same exclusion that you fought against, it's like, well, what is the black church if it's not prophetic? I don't know how to have that conversation in a way that honors right, honors the tradition. But also it's like, hey, like I want to keep this legacy, I want to be proud of this legacy. So that's why I'm asking you.
Speaker 1:I'm like, yeah, if anybody would have something to say to that, I think it's a safe place to talk about that with you and I'm hoping that more. I'm hoping we can have, like life giving but hard conversations, and I don't know how we do that, and I don't want to do it with the white gaze Because it's not for y'all, like this is not a conversation for y'all. I mean, is that hitting you as well? Is that something that you're dealing with as well?
Speaker 2:So I think what comes up for me as you're talking is I feel a lot of maybe ambivalence is the word around having this conversation because or where to have it, I should say Because of how I look and come up. I mean, you can only see a little bit of me, but you know I present in a masculine way.
Speaker 2:that is my joy, and I don't get invited to tables where I can have a conversation at all. So that's also really hard is like to come out of this church and feel like this is, this is mother tongue. But like I, you know, don't generally get invited into pool pits or to tables where we can have these really interesting conversations, even in like conference spaces that are supposed to be affirming. I know what it feels like to stick like oh no, you didn't really expect you to show up at the end of the way. So then I think I feel a lot of like maybe it's just not for me to have that conversation because there there doesn't seem to be any, any space for for me in the way that I present. So yeah, I have lots of wonderings around how and where to have a conversation about a part of Christianity. I'm deeply passionate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm just like this. This interview is so different because I'm just so curious about you and all that you bring to the table. I have another question Ontologically, would you say you're a womanist Ontologically?
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say I don't. I feel like, if I think about I mean the answer to that is yes, but I think I get really careful about like claiming things too strongly if I don't feel like I've done enough with them. I feel like I am no expert. I am a reader and student. I think I feel like, in the way that I show up in the world, probably what is more obvious about me is like the kind of post-colonial, anti-colonial stream of things which in many ways, I think womanism can be a part of. But I think that if you met me, that's probably what you would understand first as a specific kind of womanist way of being in the world. But yeah, I mean it's interesting because I think I use for me it's been really important to you she or her pronouns, because that has a lot to do with my commitment to black women.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And my feeling of myself as a black woman. But that like obviously, but also just like I feel, like even as somebody who you might see me on the street and not realize I'm a woman, I just realize like yeah for me, this is just for me, and it has been really important to say like no, I am really proud of this tradition and I want to center these experiences and let them guide me theologically and philosophically in my life.
Speaker 1:And yeah, wow, that is same. Like I really do feel like I definitely have leaned into being non-binary Again, like leaning into being masked has been my joy as well, but it's like nah, like I feel like I'm never letting go of the black woman. It feels almost like a bestowing or like it feels like a carrying on of a tradition for me. So I appreciate you bringing that to table. Okay, I'm going to ask you these final questions. I have so many things to ask you, but I think mostly what I'm going to do is have you tell us the last three questions and then have folks learn from you where you can be found and then, taking up all of this time on the podcast, I'd love to have you back.
Speaker 1:We're going to do a season called Young Gifted in Black, so I'd love to like have you back to talk more, just like theological types of conversations. But here are the final three questions that we ask every guest. And the first is what are you bringing from the rubble? Is there anything worth keeping from before you unleavened or decolonized or whatever? What are you binging? Anything you're like can't get enough of? And then, last, like, what are some words to live by? So, in any order, whenever you're ready. Love to hear those from you.
Speaker 2:Okay, what am I bringing from the rubble? I think I am a. I think it was Audrey Lord who said you know, without community there is no liberation. You know that may be it also or Anglity, so maybe confusing those, but I just I think for me church and community like and church can be. There's church outside of church, right, but I mean communities that are rooted spiritually, I think are really important for me in terms of accountability to social transformation and personal transformation. I mean those that in the broadest sense like toward justice and toward these things that I claim to want to be and I feel like I am bringing out of the rubble, like community is still very, very central, even though it looks different in the accountability of community. I mean I bring it out of the rubble.
Speaker 2:I still really love the Bible, like I do still really. I find deep life there. I love being surprised there. I also love holding it in the way that I think actually most Christians throughout history have held it, which is not in a literalist way. But I just I don't know the stories of you know the Ethiopian unit, can this intersectionality in that story and the way in which Philip is converted. There are so many pieces of scripture that I just awed by. You know that God is a God who goes with people into exile, like leaves. That just. I love those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, those are a couple of things I'm bringing from the rubble. I would say so. Actually I realize I'm not really a banger, I'm more of a safer. My wife and I we make fun of each other in this because she is a watch every now all the Netflix shows at the same night. She's up till four in the morning and I'm very likely, like I think I'll watch a half episode now and then I'll see you.
Speaker 2:For the rest, like right now I am binging the writing of Brandon Rinscher and Alexis Alvaterra. They have a co-written book where they each have their own streams but I think it has been really helpful in giving thought to how to organize and think about kind of Cush Harbor Church I am binging. There's a writer named Grace G Sun Kim, scholar, pastor, korean American woman. That's helped me understand just really the ways in which Asian American women have been deeply suppressed and oppressed and made invisible in the church. I was a earth scholarship around things like the Holy Spirit is Chi and these kind of really been helpful for me. So there's a couple of the things I'm binging which I'm kind of a reader. I'm sorry. I mean Abbott. Who doesn't love Abbott? I was a teacher.
Speaker 2:I was the first person who's been a writer and I hope that nobody likes that.
Speaker 1:I hope that nobody likes that. Yeah, very unique. And then you said words to live by. Let me see if I can find this. I have to pause you, I'm so sorry. Can you talk to me, though, about Philip? I mean, I'm sure if I was listening to this podcast and I heard to me the host skip over the intersectionality of the eunuch and Philip's conversion, so can you give me two minutes for the words to live by? On what? Please give us a taste of what you meant by that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I love that in that story in Act 8, the Ethiopian unit is never named.
Speaker 2:It is clearly, let's just say the most accurate thing is that a non-procreative person is in some way a gender and or sexual other, and it's like somebody who clearly has some money. The Ethiopian unit can read they can, they got to cherry it right, like they clearly are at this intersection of and they're brown, so they're black, they're black, so they have all of that. And so I really I kind of identify with that like kind of having levels and layers of privilege, and I love that the call for Phillip, who is in some ways more inside the community, in some ways is called to join this person's journey, like literally, it's like go run beside, go join. I think the text is go join the chariot, and so you've got this person that's more inside who's joining the journey. And then at the end of their interaction, there's this moment where you know Phillip the eunuch says like you know what's to prevent me from being baptized, and the answer to that is supposed to be.
Speaker 2:Everything is to prevent you from being baptized. But Phillip goes and what's amazing is Phillip and again the text has this amazing ambiguity, because Phillip also goes into the water and it's almost as if he's baptized as well, like as he's reconverted, and I just I find that story just so enlivening for what the community of faith can be around folks who have been marginalized and who are not supposed to be inside and yet are doing the work of like converting and reconverting people who've always seen themselves as inside. So that's a little bit of what I meant there.
Speaker 1:Oh, now y'all see, so we gonna find out where to find Pasadena. Okay, give us some words and then we oh gosh, this, that was incredible. Thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so here are my words. So this is a quote from Albert Camus, and he says the only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion, and I love that, because I am a good girl, like I was raised to be a good girl, I was not raised to be deeply free, and that makes sense in a world where, you know, my body is subject to being policed at any moment, right, so that is not a blame thing in terms of family, that is just a truth that, like propriety was important, respectability was important in the world that I was raised in. So I realized, though, that for me, learning to become just deeply free in a room full of people, regardless of who was present, to be fully myself, it is an act of rebellion. It is what brings greater freedom, and so I think I am constantly trying to move closer and closer to that kind of absolute freedom that is life giving to everybody around me.
Speaker 1:Mm Whew, thank you so much for giving us your time. Sharing with us your wisdom Like this has been really really deep for me personally. The last thing I'll ask you is where can people find you if they want to find you and hear more?
Speaker 2:So I'm actually pretty boring.
Speaker 1:I think I'm pretty good at this, based on this conversation, but continue.
Speaker 2:I'm a pastor, I'm not particularly like an influencer, so you can go to, just like you know, the table church and you can find me and find sermons on the website. So just the tablechurchorg, you know. If you have more questions, my, you know informate, my email and stuff is there. But yeah, I'm a pastor at the end of the day, so that's there's my preaching and stuff like that is mainly what I put into the world right now.
Speaker 1:It's okay. So, pastor, would you pray a blessing over us that we would lean into being absolutely free as a confrontation to an unfree world. Would you just bless us and pray over us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, creator, God, who draws us into liberation and into flourishing. Thank you so much for this time and what has been created here Communally. I just pray, lord, for an increase in courage for folks who are considering the next best step on their deconstruction and decolonizing journey. I pray for faith and I pray for encounter, whether that encounter is deeply spiritual or where, or whether it just happens over a good meal with friends. I pray that they would, that we would all encounter you at whatever stage of the journey we're in, lord, may we know that we are loved and held, never abandoned, never forgotten, and that you desire our deep freedom.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, and I say thank you so much, fasten Tannetta. It's been a great honor having you on and we look forward to having you back. Thank you so much, Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening To pick your money and your heart is.
Speaker 1:Don't need to sub-quatch your ink and clear the path for black students today.