Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Pick Your Poison: The Affirmation Spectrum & The Choice To Believe w/ Dr. Luther Young
Our compelling conversation with Luther Young, a man who's worn many hats as an ordained minister, PhD candidate in sociology, and board member for Q Christian Fellowship, is one you wouldn't want to miss. Luther bravely narrates his experiences growing up in a restrictive faith tradition, unveiling the profound effect this has had on his life and self-perception. He also delves into the effects of a Holiness church's prohibitive atmosphere, articulating how this negatively impacted his self-image and his relationship with his body. The journey that follows is an intriguing tale of unlearning and relearning, led by therapy.
The second part of our discussion with Luther uncovers the challenges queer individuals face within the black church. Luther shares his insights on the rise of homophobia and transphobia within the black church during the late 80s and early 90s, and the consequences this has had on the social, emotional, and physical health of queer black individuals. Luther's exploration of queer identity within the black church reveals a complex landscape of acceptance, rejection, and tough choices. This episode is a powerful exploration of personal experiences and expert insights, shedding light on important issues in faith and identity.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
On the other side of toxic Christianity. I found myself faced with one question, now what this podcast is about that question? We have conversations with folks who are asking themselves the same things. We're picking up the pieces of a fractured and fragmented faith. We're finding treasure in what the church called trash, beauty and solidarity in people and places we were told to fear, reject and dismiss. I'm Tamise Spencer Helms and this is Life After Leaven. What's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Leaven. I'm your host, tamise Spencer Helms, and I'm joined by almost doctor Luther Young almost doctor and I had the opportunity to hear Luther speak at an organization called QCF, which is for queer Christians Queer Christian Fellowship and he spoke about a lot of his work and what he's doing his doctoral work on. So I'm going to have Luther just talk to us about what he's working on, why it matters and what we can take from that. But first I would love to have you introduce yourself and tell us who you are, where you're from, what you do.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, tamise, for having me. It's so grateful to be here with you and for folks who are out there listening. So I am Luther Young, my pronouns are he, him, and, as Tamise mentioned, I am currently a PhD candidate almost doctor in sociology at the Ohio State University. Yes, and my work does which I'll talk about in a second bridge intersections of race and gender and sexuality but I am an ordained minister in the Christian Church Disciples of Christ. I currently serve as the council moderator for the Disciples LGBTQ Plus Alliance for the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States and Canada. I also serve as a board member for Q Christian Fellowship.
Speaker 2:Tamise mentioned a moment ago I spend most of my time in Chicago, illinois. That is kind of my home base for the time being. Originally from South Carolina, moved around the South and made my way to the Midwest, to Columbus, for graduate school, in Chicago and some other places. I grew up in the Pentecostal Church, the Holiness Church to be exact, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about that in this in this episode, but still very much Pentecostal down in my bones, even though I am currently a disciple, and so that is a little bit about who I am.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So we ask every, every guest. You know this podcast is called Life After Levin, and we're referring to levin as any sort of toxic infiltration in our faith walk that we had to extract and walk away from. So for you, what was life like before and after you unleavened?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, as I mentioned, like, I grew up in the Holiness Church and it's, I did not realize the impact that that had on me until much later in life. At the time it was all I knew and I grew up in church. I'm pretty sure I was in church since birth. I'm pretty sure, if there was a revival happening the day I was born, my mother may have taken me to church that night. So it was just churches all always been something that's been a part of me. Plenty of preachers in my family my great grandmother was a minister. My grandmother was a mother in the church. Plenty of uncles and aunts and cousins who are, all you know, bishops and apostles and pastors, evangelists, prophetess and all these whole family.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I also got a whole family full of Hellions too. So I think there's balance, intersectionality Right.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you yeah, but I was very involved in church ever since I was a young kid. I started playing music in church when I was really young. My father was a musician. He taught me how to play drums when I was about five, so I was playing drums in the church and eventually learned to play piano, keys, organ, and so I've been. I had done that since I don't know age 13 or so. I got my first job at a church that was not my home church leading music and those sorts of things at age 15. And so ever since then I've been working in music ministry.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And you know church was just it was. We were there every Sunday. We were there. You know, monday night prayer, wednesday night Bible study, friday night service If there was a revival, we there all week where they're all day Sunday, because we had, you know, sunday school morning service, stay, talk, eat, clean the church, have a Sunday evening service. But the environment that I grew up into your question was so restrictive and you know everything was centered around what we couldn't do. So you know you don't cuss, don't drink. You know women can't wear pants, men can't have long hair, you can't wear short pants, you can't, you know, go this place. I joke to this day that I can't skate because we weren't allowed to go to the skating rink as a kid.
Speaker 2:Skating rink plays secular music and you know we can go down there if they play secular music. So all these things that we couldn't do, couldn't do, couldn't do, couldn't do, couldn't do. And I didn't realize later that all of those things had an impact on me, not just like unlearning that theology, but just deep down, so realizing in my, you know, late 20s, into my 30s, that some of that stuff had an impact on how I viewed myself, so realizing that I hate my body a lot of times because we were told, as you know, as we were coming up in that faith tradition, that you know, the flesh is sinful, the body is bad. You got to bring your flesh under subjection, you got to die daily and you know all of this kind of stuff I don't like myself. Wow, shocking. Wow, Therapy I'm telling you therapy. The things that you learn and unlearn, and so I think that's probably the biggest thing, is how restrictive that thing was.
Speaker 2:And then having this realization of what the scripture says. You know, jesus says well, scripture says who was the sun? The sun sets free, is free. Indeed, jesus said I came that you might have life and have it more abundantly. So not to be. You know constricting. You know, repenting every five minutes, I stubbed my toe. Oh, bleep, oh, now I ain't saved no more. Let me go back to the altar and repeat that just was not a life to live. So that is something that I definitely had to leave behind and embrace a more liberative theology. Not anything goes theology because I, you know, I still believe holiness is right, but it engaging of the theology that focuses on being free and not being bound.
Speaker 1:That's really good. So you kind of, basically, you took off all of the shackles and left the core truths right, which which I guess would lead you into a life that says I still actually want to walk up brightly in society and I think I think that freedom actually frees us to actually do that with a clear conscience. I love that you brought that up, but I want to get to what you're studying, so talk to us a little bit about like it's a dissertation, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:Talk to us a little bit about what you're writing, about what you're studying, what you're researching.
Speaker 2:For sure. So to give a 30 second backstory of how I got to the research question that I'm investigating, as I mentioned, I've worked in church my whole life. When I was in seminary I was working at a church it was a missionary Baptist church. By that time I had kind of deviated and tried out some other denominations, was serving there in the music department. I was also the minister of young adults and then the visors to the youth. And while I was at that church I came out. I put that in quotes because it wasn't a secret, but apparently people didn't know. So I was just like, hey, I didn't know, I like guys, that didn't go so well and I was unfortunately had to leave that church.
Speaker 2:And in that period of discernment and figuring out like, what are my next steps, what does ministry look like for me, I realized what I was passionate about was making sure that our churches were safe, safer spaces for people and more inclusive, particularly when it comes to issues of race and sexuality and gender. And so when I said, okay, this is, this is the ministry that I want to do. Let me look up some resources on how to do this, particularly in a black church context, I found like two books, and that was it. And so it was like I guess somebody should go out here and develop these, these resources, and, you know, realizing that to adequately do that, someone has to go out and do the sociological work and ask questions of what is actually happening in our churches, what is actually happening in our communities, and how are those meeting up together. And so my research focuses on the intersections of race and gender and sexuality. So I'm particularly interested in how, what are the possible causes and potential consequences of homophobia, transphobia, non affirmation of queer folks in black church spaces.
Speaker 2:And so what that has looked like is most of my work is qualitative and so doing interviews with people, asking them you know this is queer folks, straight folks, any folks and just say, hey, what is your experience with church? How has that been? How does your church tackle these questions of gender and sexuality? What do you think about that, how do you feel?
Speaker 2:And I've also, you know, sat in churches and observe churches and kind of see like what is the theology that's coming across the pulpit? What infrastructure do these churches have in place, if any, for queer people? And thinking about what are the potential implications of that. So right now. My current dissertation is a big question, for that is why do queer black folks tend to stay in or leave churches that are not affirming of their identities, and what are the implications of that decision for them on their social well being, emotional well being, even their physical health? What are some aspects of that? Right, because someone could say gosh, after my church kicked me out, I turned to harmful substances that completely ruined my life. So, thinking about how all of these things are at play, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that is so interesting to me because I think about the legacy of black church and I'm wrestling because you know I wrote this book about leaving white evangelicalism, growing up in black church being introduced to white evangelicalism and then leaving that space after Trayvon died and realizing how much kind of white supremacy was embedded in everything. But now that I'm actually fully walking out queerness and you know it's been interesting to have conversations about being in the black church, because some might say, like, after the book, did you just go back to the black church? It's kind of like, well, not quite. Because I think what happens to the black church when we lose that legacy of giving voice and dignity and value to the marginalized right, like in the face of this empire in which we live?
Speaker 1:And I wonder about that, like, what are your thoughts about that? Like, if the black church isn't affirming, does it lose its legacy of being sort of this voice and a wilderness of oppression, right? Like I do believe that the trans issues right now is actually civil rights. We're in another civil rights movement in my opinion, and so it's so hard to navigate like this rich history that formed us, but then actually there's a part of us. That's not welcome in this legacy. Talk to me about that, like what are your thoughts?
Speaker 2:I know most black queer people have thought about it, so oh, I have lots of thoughts and articles and all kinds of things, so I think. So the short answer to your question is yes. One of the things that I say is that for the black church to not be fully affirming of queer people is antithetical to the black church's liberation theology roots. Yeah, those, those two are at odds with each other.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I do think so. One of the things in my research that I take care to do is not to paint the black church with an extremely broad broad stroke.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is something that kind of gets me in trouble sometimes, but you know, hey, this is what we do. I am careful to say that the black church capital B, capital C as an institution is and has always been not affirming of queer people. I do not say that the black church institutionally has, is or has always been homophobic or transphobic, because throughout history the black church has in some ways made space for queer people in really particular ways. Right, you know, you can serve in the music ministry. Yes, indeed, no, you gay, right, I'm telling you, as long as you get up there and sang real good and direct that choir, we don't care who you sleep in it. Just, you know, leave it at home, don't bring it in here. But you know. So there are these, there are these, these scripts and these rules that and I mean even pastors I did a historical analysis of the Black Church and even notable, prominent pastors who were basically openly queer and the church was just kind of like okay, you know, we just not gonna talk about the fact that Bishop or pastor or Apostle, so-and-so, is 77 years old, ain't never been married, but always got a younger man.
Speaker 2:That's always real close. I may or may not have been that younger man really pastor, but we not. That's a whole another. We got time for that in this episode and I've seen it. It's like everybody knew that me and this person was, you know, but it was like a thing it's like I'll talk about. Wow, okay.
Speaker 2:And so I argue that you know, the Black Church really didn't become super, super homophobic until the late 80s and the early 90s for a couple of reasons One, the rise of the AIDS epidemic and two, there was a lot of political stuff that happened on.
Speaker 2:So you know, kathy Cohen's book on AIDS, the Boundary of Blackness, talks about this really well. I mean even recent books like the A Butler's book, and talking about white evangelicalism. These kind of go hand in hand because, as you mentioned, like this white evangelicalism is a big part of what we're seeing also in the Black Church, and so you had this push in the late 80s and the early 90s for this super conservatism, this quote-unquote moral majority. So we're just going to tackle all of these things from family structures. So we're going to attack single mothers with anti-blackness, we're going to attack welfare anti-blackness, we're going to attack, you know. So all of these things really are rooted in anti-blackness and with that came this increase in homophobia and transphobia that took place in the 90s. And it also kind of involves, as Kathy Cohen's book talks about these black church pastors taking money from the government, essentially the government being like in these kind of political pundits, like, yeah, you all want grants, all right, well, maybe your grant will get approved if you kind of preach to more conservative theology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's basically pimping, right. I mean I love hearing that because you got. You got receipts. You are an educated man, so you know, these are all thoughts that I've just kind of been thinking and I couldn't pinpoint timeframes and things like that. So this is really helpful.
Speaker 1:A couple of questions came up in my mind, so I'm going to try to hold them and ask them in order. So can you talk to me a little bit more about the ways that white evangelicalism infiltrated black church in that time, in the 80s and 90s? I mean, I was born in the 80s, right Coming of age in the 90s, and the most most of the things I heard the black church talk about at that time were hip-hop, yeah, and AIDS, and so you know they were burn the tapes and you know all this stuff. So like, can you talk to me like, how did that get in? Because when you say I didn't know that there was a grant issue, but that that makes me that's a throwback to me about you know plantation pastors preaching certain texts, right, so talk to me about that. Can you go a little bit deeper into that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so there's, yeah, there's some of that. That. That too, right. So it's like the, the. I mean it boils down to this belief that proximity to whiteness equates to success. And so, wanting to be able to rub elbows with the right people, right, so, the right people who can kind of help push your grant through or help you identify certain sources of funding, or who can help you get a little bit of prestige, right. So thinking about who these churches are inviting to speak in their pulpits, right, because you know we like to have politicians come and speak. Like, who is going to do those sorts of things? Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean in churches, you know, operating as nonprofits, which you know, I'm not knocking that, there's nothing necessarily wrong with it. I think that churches can do really great things with a registered nonprofit organization. But thinking about where they can pull money from, what organizations or political folks they can pull money from, really by saying like, well, if we, if you preach this conservative theology, will give you this money, and wanting to kind of align with I was just saying they align with whiteness in such a way as to kind of rebuild the black family, respectability politics that we've seen all throughout reconstruction, all throughout Jim Crow, the civil rights movement, and you kind of see that resurgence that happens again, largely in response to queer people.
Speaker 2:So the push for gay marriage really started in the early 90s, right. So you kind of have these. Gay marriage was one thing that conservatives actively opposed and abortion was another big one that came out around that time to write. And so, in order to, in order for white evangelicalism also merged with political conservatism, in order for them to win, they say we have to get some of these people on our side. Well, if we can get really, really conservative black folks and other folks of color on our side and we still see the remnants of this today, right, there are plenty I argue that most black Christian folks would be Republican if Republicans weren't so racist. Yeah, that's, if they denounced racism, so many black folk, latino folk, all kinds of folks of color would, would switch and become Republican.
Speaker 2:But what we see now, right, is, after the and I might be going ahead of your question is post 90s, into we get to the Obama era and was really Joe Biden's fault when he kind of supported gay marriage while he was vice president, which forced Barack Obama to then voice his support of gay marriage. And so then the black church was like, well, now what do we do? Because we got the first black president saying he supports gay marriage. We really, with that, we can't leave the brother out there by himself. So what are we going to do? So then I argue that you see the black church kind of shift, in that they are in favor of civil rights for queer people but still view same gender relations and transgender identities as wrong. And so they say, like we think it's wrong to discriminate against queer people. We think that maybe they should have the right to marry they should have, but we don't want to perform their marriages right, like you can do what you want to. It's more that live and let live kind of thing.
Speaker 1:And I feel, like.
Speaker 2:that's kind of the era that we're in now, especially in the, in the age of social media, where it has become unpopular to be overly homophobic because you end up on World Star hip hop and all these other things that you get canceled. So people aren't being as openly homophobic these days, it's more so we just not going to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we welcome everyone, okay. So, okay, wait, wait, wait, okay, oh man, okay. So when you think about the words, actually, let me tell you this. So I I never had the language for that, but that was my experience.
Speaker 1:So when I came out to my parents, I was actually outed. So I was like, well, let me go on and call them before, you know, somebody else does. So you know, at first I was like y'all can't be terribly surprised, but we talked through it and it was like, well, you know we don't agree, but you know we can't judge. And then I met with my bishop, and the bishop of the church that I went to after, like this was a church that my parents started going to when I, like, went to college, and so this bishop is amazing they do amazing where you should probably interview him for your stuff because he's incredible.
Speaker 1:And he sat across me and he was like you know I don't agree, but I'm learning and willing to hear you and I know you love God and Luther when I tell you that there was something that like washed over me hearing this man say to me like I don't agree, but I know your heart and I know you love God. That was so affirming to me. So when you think about homophobia and transphobia, is there a difference between being like non affirming and being transphobic or homophobic? Can you talk to me about the differences?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, and this is actually something that I'm still thinking through. There's an organization in Chicago called Pride and the Pews I'm not sure you've heard of them, don Abram, who is the founder and executive director wonderful, wonderful guy doing some really amazing work. And they have this thing. They haven't, like, published it yet. I'm waiting for them to publish it so I can cite them on it. But they've kind of created this idea, this notion of churches kind of being along a continuum from being just kind of like outright homophobic to being like, you know, maybe some don't ask, don't tell to maybe accepting, to affirming, to advocacy, I think is maybe the last step.
Speaker 2:And that's how I kind of think of it, as like not affirming.
Speaker 2:You know you have accepting, affirming and then advocating, because those are all three different things.
Speaker 2:And I do talk about that in some of my previously published work in saying that the black church is not monolithic in how it deals with sexuality and sexual orientation.
Speaker 2:Sure, the overwhelming majority are not affirming, and that's the exact word that I use is that they don't fully affirm queer people as being, you know, whole good. But I think there are different levels, because some churches are outright like you're nasty, you're wrong, you're going to hell, and then others that are like well, we love everybody, we accept you. Now, we're not going to perform your wedding, you can't be ordained here, but you're welcome to come and nobody's going to like bother you to churches that, yeah, we accept everybody, you know. And then you have to kind of the next level of churches that will march in pride parades and, you know, write letters to their elected officials on behalf of queer people, so that you kind of have like different ways that churches engage with that. And I think it's important to understand those nuances, to, as I said earlier, not to just paint the black church with such a broad brushstroke.
Speaker 1:I'm going to hit you with another question off of that. So if you're a black queer person, should you attend a church that does not advocate?
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:I don't even like the word should, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a. That is a tough question, because and this is something that I have to tell my white counterparts as well, my white queer counterparts as well because that's always this question of, well, if you, if your church is not affirming, just go somewhere else, but the reality is they ain't really much other places to go. Yeah, mm-hmm, that's exactly why I asked. And so then it's like do I just not go to church? Mm-hmm, right, which is part of my question for my dissertation, because I want to know what are people doing?
Speaker 2:Some people choose, you know what. I'm just not going to go, I'm just not going to do it. Some people can decide to go to a church that's predominantly white, because the overwhelming majority of affirming spaces are predominantly white, and some people try those spaces and be like, I mean, it's affirming, but now I got to deal with racism. So now it's like, do I go to the black church and deal with their non-affirmation, or do I go to this predominantly white church that's affirming and then have to deal with the racism? So it's almost kind of like a. I got to pick which oppression I want to deal with.
Speaker 2:Pick your poison, so to speak. I'm telling you right, and so that's what makes this question difficult. I don't believe that folks should go where they are being actively harmed. That is my personal opinion. If I'm ever talking to someone and they're going in there like if they are actively harming you, leave. That would be my recommendation. But I understand it's not that easy, because where else are you going to go? There's also like family issues, right, because if you're in some places, if you're raised in a family church, and your whole family goes and like leaving the church is like leaving the family, and so there are always these layers to it. But I would always say like, if you're somewhere where you are actively being harmed, leave. Now, other than that, there's some things to negotiate. Wow, okay.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to think if I have any more questions. The reason I asked you that was because of, like you know, like white progressives and the experiences there and the ways that they think about how, like if a place is not affirming that you need to that place, if that place is not outwardly advocating it is not affirming, and hearing that a lot in white spaces and feeling like, yeah, I think it's a little different. You know like I feel and I don't. That's why I asked you Like I don't know if that's counterintuitive for me to be like, yeah, but like a black church. That's like not advocating, but you know they're affirming you. You it's life giving to be there. The pastor knows you, the people know you, they know your life, you know like, you know you don't have to hide in any way. Like to me that feels like. I think that that can be okay because this invisible institution that was birthed during, you know, the beginning of America, it's like it's more than church.
Speaker 1:You know, it's more than Sunday morning. It is a whole network of community and plus there's all kinds of other affirmations taking place. I remember being told I was cute for the first time in church, being told I was smart for the first time in church, being told that I was called to preach. I mean, the bishop I was just telling you about called me to the altar one time and said you are anointed to preach and to teach truth, you know. And so there are. There are all kinds of other affirmations that take place in black church that I feel like we can't necessarily use that white progressive lens to kind of determine whether or not a church is a safe space.
Speaker 1:But you're the one with the receipts in the PhD, so I'm just checking. Now, tell me about like. So when you said the nineties and the eighties, do you have documentary like evidence of that stuff? Like the 501 situation and getting like donations, if you say certain things, I mean we know we've got documentary evidence of that happening, you know, in slave times. But now, like with that, is there evidence of that?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. I don't have those because I will admit, I did not do the archival research on that. I just read other people's work who did.
Speaker 2:But that would be a good. That would actually be a fascinating project, and if someone out there is listening who wants to collaborate on such a project, that would be. That would be fascinating right To see if those documents exist and or to see how churches and para church and political organizations tried to cover that up, maybe. So yeah, to go over that with a magnifying glass would be interesting.
Speaker 1:It would be All right. So I'm going to obviously I'm going to have you back. I have a whole lot of different seasons in mind and they're all topical, so I'm like those three seasons especially. So we keep our seasons in our episode short, because we want people to stay with us. So I'm going to ask the last three questions that I ask everyone, and please take your time, because you are you're brilliant and very clear, and I think that this has been really helpful for folks. So what are you bringing with you from the rubble? Was there anything worth keeping from the faith that might have collapsed for you when you started walking, in truth? The second question is what are you binging? Something you watch on Netflix or something like that? And then, what are some words for us to live by? And I actually I would love for you to speak to the audience at that point. That's OK. So whatever order you want to do, go for it.
Speaker 2:For sure. What am I bringing from the rubble? I made a note to myself because I didn't want to forget, when you asked me earlier, a felt spirituality. We saw always say I used to hear in church I wouldn't serve a God, I couldn't feel Right. And so it really is about that, that feeling, and that's something that you know. Growing up in the Pentecostal church, it was all a feeling. I mean, everything was a feeling. We didn't, nothing was scripted, everything was extemporaneous. And I realized when I got to seminary that not everybody's a church like that. There are churches that everything from the top to the bottom is written out oh yeah, printed.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, oh, you get five minutes for certain things. I go.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you oh, the prayer is two lines.
Speaker 1:It is short up in there I got something.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you. But so everything, everything was extemporaneous. I mean, nothing was planned, we didn't play any of the music, somebody just got up and started singing and that was how it went. But it was all about a feeling and how you know, everything just kind of moved and connected, and that is something that I am taking with me. No matter what space I'm in, whether I'm in a predominantly black space, pentecostal space, episcopalian space, catholic space, I want a spirituality that I can feel, and if I can't feel it, I won't be there. And so that is something that I'm definitely taking with me and learning how to incorporate into the various spaces that I am in. What am I binging? Right now? I've been binging that old TV show, 24.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, what's it? 무슨 last name? Jack Jack.
Speaker 2:Jack Bauer, Jack Bauer bruh. That's it.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was obsessed with 24 back in like 2008 and 9, bruh, yes.
Speaker 2:I have brought it back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I brought it back. Oh my gosh, wow, oh man.
Speaker 2:That's been great. I love. I basically only watch crime dramas and medical dramas. Those are like the only two-shot risk of TV I watch. And then the occasional HGTV and Food Network, but that's usually when I'm in a hotel, Like I'm traveling in a hotel. Hgtv I like to see the people. You know, I'm a stay-at-home mom and I'm a freelance basket weaver and our budget is $8.6 million, Right, and I'm just like what are the baskets made out of?
Speaker 1:Indeed, Can I get a basket? I mean a gift of kind.
Speaker 2:Telling you Sure, you don't even need that big a house and so words to live by. One of the things that I always say is belief is a choice. Belief is a choice, and so that is something that I have had to learn, especially growing up in a space where there's so much indoctrination to where you don't really feel like you have a choice of what to believe. It's like this is it? You either believe it or you go into hell. There's no conversation. Well, I mean, there allegedly is conversation. We say Bible study, where we talk about it, but basically it's just us reinforcing that this is what you're supposed to believe. But belief is a choice. We can choose what we want to believe and our belief can evolve and they should evolve and they should evolve and they should evolve.
Speaker 2:We like to bring up this scripture of I am the Lord, I change not. Sure, god does not change. The essence of who God is does not change, but our understanding of God most certainly should. As our circumstances change. How we encounter God, how we engage with God, should change. People in the 12th century prophets didn't pray for traveling grace and mercy as they go down to dangerous highways and byways, so they car wouldn't flip a book Because they didn't have no car. But we do so now. We have certain things that our understanding of God as a protector, a hedge of protection, is a little bit different now, because we're not worrying about whether our donkeys' knees are going to buckle. So our understanding of who God is and how we encounter God does change, and sometimes that does cause us to reevaluate.
Speaker 2:The entire point of the New Testament in Jesus Christ is to bring a new understanding of how we encounter God. Jesus, I did not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it. So this is a new way of doing it. This is how this had to work in the past, because that's how the world was, that's how things operated. There were 12 tribes, and so we had to do things this way. Now that we're in this new era, we have to adapt, and what those laws meant for those people have to change, and that's exactly what Jesus did. But we just think that if Jesus came, jesus died, and then the story just kind of well, then Paul, because we love Paul. But after Paul the story just kind of stops and it's like so God ain't been talking since first century. God just stopped, god just went on mute, god dropped like the first century.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:So belief is a choice and our beliefs should evolve. So I encourage all of us to choose to embrace beliefs and theologies that center of liberation. Once again, jesus came to set us free in every sense of the word, and so choose to believe that which will set you free.
Speaker 1:Come on, Listen. This has been really, really rich, and I think I just want to thank you for the work that you're doing, Because I can't imagine what will happen when educated black queer theologians begin to not only speak to but begin to lead in the church, Because of the embodiment and the wrestling that takes place. There's such richness just in what you say and every person that I've met, especially black queer people the depth, right Like it doesn't matter who you're speaking with. The depth, the nuance, the articulation. I just think that is something that is so beautiful and I'm excited to see what happens as more and more of us kind of rise up and begin to speak. So thank you for your work. I cannot wait to read what you come out with and I'm definitely going to have you back. So thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Where can people find you?
Speaker 2:So my handle Luther Young on all social media platforms. So I'm on Instagram, twitter, I'm on Facebook. You can just search my name, luther Young or Reverend Luther Young Jr. Yeah, I'm around.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Rev.
Speaker 2:Oh, lutheryoungcom. Yes, Luther, youngcom, lutheryoungcom, ok.
Speaker 1:All right set, and they can probably get all the other handles on there, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:LutherYoungcom. Thank you so much for being on the show already. Thank you for listening To pick your money and your heart is donate to Subquatcher Inc and clear the path for black students today.