Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Love and Relationships and All The Things w/ Micah & Nayalisa
Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads in your spiritual journey? Ever wondered how to navigate the complexities of relationships in a space seemingly foreign to you? Join us as we turn the pages of Micah Rose and Nayalisa's stirring journey, two remarkable individuals who channel their experiences from the white evangelical space to reshaping their lives and love story.
Micah and Naya's tale is unflinchingly real. From their initiation into the white evangelical space - Micah via a church media program and Naya through her enrollment at Moody Bible Institute - to their consequential decision to step away from this environment, their narratives are punctuated with courage and resilience. The duo openly discusses their personal love story and the trials they faced while building their relationship in the white evangelical sphere. Nayalisa's struggle with coming out, Micah's solace in her sermons during the pandemic, and their acceptance of their 12-year age gap amidst Nayalisa's family, all culminate into an incredibly touching narrative.
As we delve deeper into Micah and Nayalisa's journey, we explore the themes of freedom and healthy relationships. Hear firsthand about their therapeutic journey of self-discovery, the pivotal role of spirituality in their relationship, and their commitment to creating a safe space to explore their identities. We also examine the elements they rescued from the ruins of white evangelicalism, and their dedication to empowering those at the margins. This episode is brimming with honesty, heart, and a profound discussion on faith, love, and freedom, making it an absolute must-listen.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
From the other side of toxic Christianity. I found myself faced with one question, now, what this podcast is about that question? We have conversations with folks who are asking themselves the same things. We're picking up the pieces of a fractured and fragmented faith. We're finding treasure in what the church called trash, beauty and solidarity in people and places we were told to fear, reject and dismiss. I'm Tamise Spencer-Helms, and this is Life After Leaven. Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Leaven. I'm your host, tamise Spencer-Helms, and I'm joined by an old, old, old, dear friend, micah, and their partner, and I'm going to have you introduce yourselves who you are. We're going to talk about love and freedom and all the things. Welcome to the show. Tell us who you are, what you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thanks for having us. My name is Micah Rose and I'm Nia Lisa. I'm currently a teacher. This is like what's going on in my life.
Speaker 3:And I am a marriage and family therapist. So my own practice and helping the people, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love it. I'm so excited to have you guys on the show. Pronouns just so I don't pronounce she, her, she, they, they.
Speaker 1:She, her, she yeah, perfect, so it's so good to have y'all. I want to talk a little bit about freedom, so some background for the folks who are listening. We definitely had another person on this season, kevin from Low Heart. Yes, so he, he talked about you on his episode, and so it's only right that I ask about that space that we shared, circa. You know what was it. I was there in 08.
Speaker 1:Like 2012 and you were there before I got there. So tell me a little bit about what got you involved in white evangelical space.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then what it, what it was that got you out, and I would love to hear from both of y'all on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um. So I got an email from a friend, uh, which is so strange, and she's like hey, there's this um media program and I know, like you really want to do media, you've been feeling it, you've been trying to do stuff. So you know, it's like a church and like a thing, so like go go check it out. And that's literally how I got in. Wow, for that I was at a Presbyterian church. Yeah, um, that was a more light church. I don't know if you know what that is, but they're like very accepting, very affirming, and they actually went against church, um, like the church rules at the time.
Speaker 2:Um, so I was there, I was a part of that church, and then I went and did mission year, which is like, again, very affirming, um, and you know, I like. So I kind of stepped into this space because I was like, yeah, I kind of do want to do media. I mean I need to move back to Kansas city because my was having babies and they didn't know me, and so I was like, okay, I need to, like I need to get back in there. So, yeah, that's kind of how I got in.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:And I was like I need to get back to the white evangelical space, like just because of my desire to do media.
Speaker 1:That is so interesting because I will get into it. Now, at least tell me about you. How did you get into it?
Speaker 3:Or if you were at all, Well, I, my mom, I really appreciated what she did and I grew up in the inner city of Chicago and we were very like around my, we were very inundated with my people, meaning I didn't really know about white evangelicalism, not aware about any of that. I was around Latinos and that's kind of what I knew. And it wasn't until I went to Moody Bible Institute when I was yeah, I was 18. And I mean, imagine you live in Chicago, right, pretty diverse city, and you go to downtown Chicago and I'm thinking, oh, this is going to be like home, right, and all I see is like a sea of white folk. But I started to assimilate because professors were starting to make fun of people who believe the things that I believed in or practice the things that I did, or the things that I saw in church. They were labeling it as crazy, manipulative, et cetera, et cetera. And so I think, through my schooling, so through Moody, and then I went to seminary at Trinity is when I got like really steeped into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, prior to that, though, like I just knew what I grew up in, so I had no idea there was this whole other world that influenced what I grew up in as well. Right, there was portions of it in there. I didn't know there was a name for it, for sure.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking about how that age, that 17, 18 age that's like the. They go fishing for that age. They really really do. What was it that got you all out of sort of these spaces? What led to kind of a? Was there like a clean break? What is faith looking like for y'all now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I went to Trinity and do my masters of divinity and in that I started. There was a class in particular which was very rare. It was a class on just Latino history in the church and I started to realize like, oh crap. So, but I had already committed to come into Kansas City. That's how I came here, was for a pastoral residency at an all white church. Well, as I started to like dismantle and unassimilate, I'm heading to a sea of whiteness. I didn't really know. And when I got here they decided to pass a bylaw that women couldn't be pastors, although they called me a pastor, right. So that was the whole unraveling for me. There was a lot that happened and then once I left there, it kind of was like F the church at that point. But then I went to do my masters and marriage and family therapy and I got a lot of healing there, just a lot of my own wounds and things like that.
Speaker 3:But I went back to the church. So I was at this grassroots on the east side of Kansas City Okay, multicultural kind of you know all that and so I went there and they were like, oh my God, you can like run this church, you can like be the next, you know, pastor, whatever, and I was there for a bit until I met Micah and until we started dating. Wow, okay, and once. So, once we started dating, that was the unravel Everything changed, and so it wasn't that clean of a break, in that I mean, I made it clear like I can't further do this, like you're not for all people and that's just my line that I'm not going to cross, but they like didn't tell anybody in the church, very like ushed about it, and then told stories about me to the congregation, like to the congregants of the church, and so very messed up in that way. So I've been on a journey of like fuck church, and for a long time now, I mean even right now.
Speaker 3:I would say I love that the theme is freedom, because the question of what do I bring, or kind of what do I take? I would say freedom, like liberate, because I was even in all that moment. I was starting to see Jesus as a liberator rather than a savior, because I just like I don't get what the saving thing, like I don't vibe with that, but I can't live with someone who's trying to liberate, and so that's what I bring with me. If that's it, though Jesus thing it's like I mean sure, okay, yeah, but I think the concept of freedom and people living in that freedom is something that I hold really dear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I love to hear the ways that people who it's so funny, because my favorite people on this side of things are the people who have receipts from that world and that's they're not sloppy with it they they kind of know what the things that are going to be thrown out about their character is, they know what passages are going to be used, and so it kind of it's so interesting to look back at life before and go, yeah, like this is how I'm one of the people I used to talk about or I used to judge at least. Yeah, it was much of a like. So I didn't realize that it was you all started dating and that caused the unraveling. That's that's interesting to me. So I'm going to switch Michael rose. So, okay, we were in a.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I've been watching cold documentaries, not until this year, okay, so actually, alice, my partner and I, we we just watched what's the name of it? Oh, how to become a cult leader, right, it's like it just came out on Netflix and it's it was like the second season, the second episode, and I was like I think maybe I was in a cold and it's like you don't. So this whole, I'm serious like I was yesterday years old when I finally set it out loud like babe, I think that was an actual cult that I was in right like, and it was always really hard for me to navigate that because I had so much, like you know, I had encounters with God there. You know there was a part of it that I was wrestling with. But I'm wondering about what it looks like to leave a place, and it sounds like you didn't even go because of the same reasons as me. So I kind of want to hear your story about you know, what's your relationship to that type of ministry, what's your relationship to Charismania and all those types of things?
Speaker 1:Because for me it was like very hard to navigate, even getting to the place where I could say I was involved in a cult. I could say that it was unhealthy, I could say that I would never go back, I could say that I wouldn't caution, I would caution the student to go out there. But I've never been able to say that until, like last night. I'm going to go back to the place where I was in the past and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's what this was. So your experience in that place, like tell me a little bit about your experience there. You were doing media stuff and you were. You and I crossed paths a lot but we weren't in the same sections and stuff. So like, tell me about what it was like for you to leave. Like, was it a hard decision? Like, how did that go?
Speaker 2:Well so I was told well so I did media right and I wrote a bunch of plays. I wrote musicals.
Speaker 1:I wrote a film, you did.
Speaker 2:You did. Yes, there's some of those plays. I look back and I'm like I'm like okay, there was something happening here that I was clearly working on there. But I had done all this stuff. And then I was sort of told by the media department hey, like you're really great at what you do, we need you to keep doing this, but we want to pay you much less. And I was like no, and then I went to a friend who happened to be in leadership there and just kind of was like can you hear our dog?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can, but it's okay, you might hear Beacon today, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay. I'm like she is whining for no reason. She's whining for no reason.
Speaker 1:Her parents are right here, all here. They want you to come back, right.
Speaker 2:I get that life Right. So I went to a friend who was a leader in the ministry and told them about it and they said, okay, don't worry about it, you can leave that department and come over to my department and just do what you've been doing. And I was like, okay, great, and so I did that. And then there was a time to recommit and I don't know what it used to be called, but Sacred trust. Sacred trust, there it is. What was it called? It's so weird, I don't remember that. And that was in 2015.
Speaker 2:And it was time to re-up and I was like, nah, and I just didn't do it, like I'm not doing it. And so I got a job and I started working for the Boys and Girls Club I remain still connected, just not on staff. So I taught film and production, still at their school. And then I taught at a local, like I think it was like a K-12 Christian school, it was just like also affiliated with them, and I taught there for a couple of years. Well, I taught film for a couple of years, taught at that school for, I think, a year plus a semester.
Speaker 2:And as my life started to shift, meaning like I was like, oh, I'm gonna take in my niece and she's gonna come live with me. What does this look like? And I was like let me go ahead and just go to where I wanna be, which was in the city, and like that's literally that's how I left, that's how I sort of became unraveled. But I think, truly the moment of me going you know what this is not for me was when Trayvon Martin was killed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were at the same time.
Speaker 2:That moment was like I realized I was like wait a second, like how I thought y'all were pro-life. I'm not understanding what this is. Oh well, he shouldn't have. And he da, da, da, da, da. And then Ferguson happened. Did Ferguson happen after that? Yeah, it did, yeah. So then Ferguson happened and I was like wait, what? And I actually went with a leader to St Louis like the week after all the things happened with Michael Brown, and we're walking down by. I don't know if you remember the picture, the burned out QT. Yes, I do.
Speaker 2:We were standing there and the police came up there like hey, you can't stand here. I said first of all, and I said to like get real. And this leader was like hey, hey, hey, we have to honor them. And I said no, no, no, I have to be honored. And everyone just sort of looked at me and the police were like well, y'all can't like hang out here. And I was like cool, we're not hanging out, we're like chatting and we're praying and we're walking around. And they were like oh, okay, just keep it moving.
Speaker 2:And that came out of like yes, where? Yeah, I didn't realize that was in there. I should have realized that that was in there, but I didn't. And yeah, that was for me. Those like those very significant murders by the police of black people started to like undo anything that I had learned at that place. I had started to undo like relationships which I didn't even realize. I have a conversation with someone who is very dear to me and tell them like I'm not, your token Right, like I'm not. And then we like never spoke again.
Speaker 1:If you liked it, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, that's, there's that.
Speaker 1:There is that I remember. I mean obviously we were there at the same time when that happened, but I remember like I write about it. But I also wrote about the solemn assembly we had around Obama's election and that was one of the beginnings of why is there really lots of like, really really sad white people around and everybody back home like family? Yeah, I mean just like a solemn assembly over this, like y'all serious and so just know, having no, just thinking back to that and thinking, oh my gosh, this stuff is so embedded in the system that you don't even it takes something so jolting to kind of be like wait a minute, this is not what I signed up for, but I do remember that about you. I remember that you always were like very, you had so much confidence, you were very regal. I do remember that. So I wondered if it was a similar situation or not.
Speaker 1:But here's what I really want to find out about now. I already know how y'all met. I want to know the story. How did you meet? So to me, I just find that fascinating that the unraveling happened not there but around, like you being in love, which feels really weird to me. But tell me a little bit more, if you don't mind.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, I don't mind. I think the unraveling was probably more from my end than hers. As you can tell, micah claims we met, like when I came to Kansas City, which I have no recollection whatsoever. So I say we met the way I say. We met at the pastor's house, the church that I had like joined the grassroots church. We met on his deck because that was COVID, everybody was doing the outside hangs, remember. So that's where I met Micah and I was like okay, like whatever. It wasn't really was like whatever. And so from that meeting on we were like, we became friends and really, though like a friendship was really around. Micah would text me questions about like the Bible, and then I would like answer it and shared. We shared a lot of the same sentiments and that was a lot of the questions.
Speaker 3:So like that was like set of heart. What do you think about this? Or what do you think about?
Speaker 2:that we also talked a lot of shit about people 100% that we're doing, but in a thing we were like Okay, right.
Speaker 3:What did she just what? Like this is the love it? And then one day we went to a dinner that we were having with a friend and I think that was the first time, like I walked in there and was like hmm, like interesting, like I actually like this part, like not just like oh, friend, but like oh, like I remember what she was wearing and I remember all of that and that's kind of how we started. I mean, we went through a lot of ups and downs and I wasn't out yet. So I didn't come out until December and we started dating in June. So I hadn't been out yet.
Speaker 3:So you can imagine the fear that I had, the just all of that that comes with it. Then you know I'm someone, when you get to know me, I don't live in hiding very well, and I'm not a very well, I'm authentic. Like I can't not be authentic. And so that didn't. We were like nobody knew we were dating, but that didn't last long. I just couldn't like keep it low anymore. And then I started to tell people, I told the pastors and all of them, and they, yeah, they did it on. Well, my family did, but they didn't. Yeah, which is like you wouldn't think, but they did. My family, like till this day, has been really great. But that's from my side of just like what we met and what happened and I don't know what to add.
Speaker 2:I mean truly. We met like so far before this, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:The first time that she said that we met, but it was the first time that we like talk to each other. Yes, okay, so there's that, but no, that's like pretty much. It Like I had sort of been done with church, as I was going to a local church that's really well known and basically got asked to leave because I talked about race stuff too much. So I was like I mean, that was in 2017. And I was like devastated and was like I'm done, like this whole church thing is done, like there's nothing I have to offer it and there's nothing that they have to offer me. And so when I started, I started watching. So the pandemic happened and I started when we were quarantined, I started watching church on on Facebook and my church my, I did. I call my home church, my church in New York. They were having services and I was like, oh, like, look at them, they're singing their songs, they're so cute. There was like all these like I mean they're, so, they're getting, you know, much older. And I'm like, oh my gosh, look at so and so and they, oh my gosh, whoever that is has a baby and you know, whatever, right. And so, like one day I was watching it and I didn't catch the ending and it just rolled onto another service and it happened to be this church and I knew the people who ran it or who were the pastors, and I was like, oh, let me watch.
Speaker 2:And I, at this point I was already out. I was like, well, I'm not doing the church thing, so I don't have to hide, I'm gonna be out. And yeah, that's kind of. I mean, I joined the church and was like in love, just like these are real people talking about real things. And I loved every time that Nia would preach I was like God, girl, better preach. Like I was just like in my house by myself, just like, yes, preach for real, for real. And you know, I just I was like, oh, I love her, she's so great, she's so great.
Speaker 2:And then we had the opportunity to connect, and then we were in some different community programs together and yeah, and then the rest of it just happened very similarly. Like we were at this dinner and I actually wasn't super paying attention to her Cause I was like, well, she wouldn't be into me and she's like, no, I don't think she's like ready to be out, so like I'm gonna just let her be. And then she sent me a text During the dinner. During the dinner that I didn't catch Cause I was trying to be present. I was like I'm on game.
Speaker 3:Okay, I know, I was like Okay, I was like I got it. Hey, I asked Elf when we left, cause she didn't text me back until we left. Oh my God, I was in the car though, like what do you do now? Like do you text, or whatever, and then she texts me back and I was like let's go, awesome.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I had just received like a bunch of clothes in the mail, cause you know you can't go shopping. And so I was, like you know, medicating with retail therapy, and I was like, do you want to watch me try on clothes? Like?
Speaker 3:sure, and I was like I'm gonna send me a bunch of pictures of dresses. And I was like, ah, you look like an old lady here. I don't know about this one.
Speaker 2:And then we just kept talking. We just kept talking and then she went to bed because she was going out of town the next day and that whole week that she was gone. I was like, is this my person? I think this might be my person and I'm like I don't know. And then I found out how old she was and that was the whole thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause I'm 12 years apart. Yeah, 12 years apart.
Speaker 2:I'm 12 years older than her and I was like that's too much, like I'm like robbing the cradle, I mean, it was like a whole thing.
Speaker 3:It's been 10 hours, it's fine.
Speaker 2:OK, thank you, thank you. But then, oh, my god, I don't know it all worked out. There was some like you know something that happened in the middle of all of that. But, like for us, we stayed really connected. We stayed very like I don't know just like we decided this was going to be our thing. We were going to be open and honest with each other, like I would go to her house or she'd come over to mine and I like cook dinner every night and we would just sit on the porch and drink whiskey and cry a lot, because we were just like.
Speaker 3:I mean, I was at that point. There's an important hopefully in your life where you just don't have time right For the bullshit of the like, and I think we're at that spot and now we just had a really deep, hard conversations really in the beginning. Yeah, that, I think, set it up, yeah.
Speaker 1:Gosh, that's so. I was thinking about how, how do I want to? So it's it's interesting to me because we've had a couple of people on the show talking about dating and talking about love, which is so interesting because it just didn't come up in the first season. But you know, I think about how so many people are kept from meeting their person because there are so many rules around what you can and cannot do and who you can and cannot love. And I'm thinking about because I can. I can tell I met you at CCDA, naya, I think it was two years ago. I met you and I think y'all were dating or maybe had just started dating, I can't remember which one that was hearing?
Speaker 2:That was here.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We were dating. So it's like you know, you see people and you're like, wow, like these people are matched, they go, you know, and I see it around, like my partners, chosen family, the footwork, my chosen family as well, like from Gallaudet, the way that the relationships, because there's not all of that compulsion, I guess. I mean you choose someone that suits you right and it's. I haven't experienced a relationship on such a level where you do have someone to talk about spiritual things, you have your best friend, you have the person you drink with, the person, you laugh with your lover, your partner I mean just all of these things that there are so many people in relationships right now who were given a roadmap to something that was not that that relationship was meant, that they were meant to serve another person. So how do you all navigate like relationship?
Speaker 1:For instance, for us, we moved in beforehand Because I was like hell, no, I've been married, I will not do that again. So we moved in after a little bit and I think what was so beautiful about that is like the engagement, the marriage, all of it came after. So when we make covenant, we meant it, because there was no, we wanted to make covenant before God, like it wasn't, there was no other reason to do it. It wasn't like we were waiting on a pastor because they sure as hell weren't going to do it. It wasn't like we were waiting to do anything because purity culture is a joke. It was like when we made the covenant before God, it was so deliberate because of that, because all of those like arbitrary restrictions were taken off. What's been your experience in that in terms of freedom, in terms of relationship?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did the same thing, by the way.
Speaker 3:Yeah same thing. We had the same experience.
Speaker 2:It just it got to the point where I was literally like in tears Every time she had to leave or I had to leave her house, like full on tears and I'm like not a cryer, that's not really what I do. But I would be like okay, stop it, why can't you just stay over here? And she's like, oh my God, it was really my cat y'all like for a referral.
Speaker 3:No, really Like I can, because here's a deal Once you move the cat in. I never left, it's a wrap Once you move the cat in.
Speaker 1:No, I'm about to bring my cat, so I need to know yeah yeah, right, you brought him over.
Speaker 3:January 1st.
Speaker 2:January 1, 2022. And we were just trying to see how he would get along with the dog. We're kind of seeing it.
Speaker 3:And then he just made it his home and we were like all right, bud, this is what we're doing.
Speaker 2:And the dog didn't care, she's just like real goofy and ridiculous and loves him. And they chase each other around the house and so he became very apparent Like oh, I guess either you're moving in or I'm taking care of your cat.
Speaker 3:And I would say, like around freedom. I remember we actually went to therapy really like pretty quick, yeah, yeah, okay. But what was interesting is when we would tell people they were like, oh, like, is it that serious? Like are you like going to get me? I was like, what about just wanting a healthy relationship? Like like, what about that? Right, but again all these rules of, oh, you only go to couples therapy because you're going to do premarital and then after premarital, right, and I was like I just remember, right, people were like, oh my God, and so, yeah, we're going. So we did that too, and that was actually very freeing. Yeah, being able to be in that space and do that early on, yeah, and I recommend it 100%.
Speaker 1:I do too. I mean, I think about so I'm married. It's so interesting because my partner has their LCSW they do sex psychotherapy, yeah, and so we started doing therapy pretty early on too, just because hello, I wasn't an abusive marriage, I had a kid. Like there was a lot to step into. And I think what people don't realize is like what's been so cool about this is like we are now that you're in like a safe enough environment.
Speaker 1:There are parts of myself that I'm getting to know that I just never had the safety and the security and like the freedom to be that vulnerable, to get to know myself, like coming into being non-binary and things like that. But it's so funny because you watch someone like become themselves. It's such a beautiful like station in another person's life to watch them. Who would they be if they were free and knew they would they were loved, right, get to kind of witness this. And so I really love meeting couples that are like, yeah, we just want a healthy relationship. Why? Because you know there's there's parts of ourselves that are have we cope because of trauma in the past? We cope because of lies we've heard about ourselves, about the world, like I mean that stuff is real. And so, like in our like in our relationship, we name the egos and all of that, like you know. So now my partner can call out Like, if I'm acting a certain way, like this is your ego acting, and they'll call the name of the actual person out. Cause I think it's so beautiful to say like I, as I go on this journey of knowing who I am, I'm bound to bump into pockets of myself that might cause harm, just because I don't know where trauma resides. You know, I don't know what kind of buttons all the buttons we know about, we know about, but there might be buttons that like hey, I'm responding. We talk about like broken toes. Like you know, if normally, if you're dancing with someone and you step on their foot, it's not a big deal, if they have a broken toe, like a small little step could be like a really, really big deal, and so it's been so beautiful to like, be like hey, babe, I think I have a broken toe there, so I should. I like overreacted, but like here's where it is, and so you have someone that knows you. That's helping you kind of become who you are.
Speaker 1:And, nyleast, when you were talking about like theologically, I could tell that theologically, some stuff is shifted. For you and to me it's like it's the same. It's like, oh my gosh, like this is, this is resurrection, like this is becoming whole, like right, like letting wounds heal and scar over and becoming whole. To me that feels more like resurrection and what it means to live a fully, a fully glorious life in the midst of a world that is very thorny. And I know that that's. We had Adam. Do you know Adam Evers? He started Believer, the Believer app.
Speaker 1:He was on the show too and he was talking about how it's just so interesting because queer people can say this is what hard feels like Like we, we know how to live, to be fully in love and fully alive and then just be having like hard stuff, just like shit happening and hurtful shit happening, like in the midst of that.
Speaker 1:And I do think that there's a way. So I'm hoping that you're still preaching Nyleast, because like there is something that I think queer theologians in particular bring to the table, and you're a person of color, so you've got all those intersections and so do I. Right Like you can bring something to bear upon, I think faith and spirituality that just wasn't there before, because people are having to navigate tension in their actual being, like I in and of myself. I'm in tension, right, like I am gray. Like what does it mean to be non-binary? It means that I'm not that or that I'm this, you know, and it's so. It's been so interesting. I just went on a tangent there but I got hype listening to y'all talk about relationships you know I got hype, though, because right now, micah and I are learning about.
Speaker 3:You know, talk about broken toes and where trauma resides and we, our first year of marriage, we got hit with tragedy right, with Micah losing her sister, and then we I'm inheriting kids not even a year into marriage and I think that I think, if we didn't have that foundation right Of like what we did and the you know we're going to therapy and all of those things that safety and security, I mean, I don't know if we could have outlasted this tragedy right, but even in this tragedy, learning lots about myself but then learning together like oh, this is how this impacts or this is what happened, so it's all that to say. I think, having been liberated right from that whiteness of what it's supposed to look like, I think it gives us a space to kind of figure out what does this look like for us?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just so. I just I mean, I'm getting to know you and we'll get to know you more. But knowing Micah and knowing like you guys probably have a quality ass family, like you know, it's just like you know it's not like I spent, it's Micah, like you know what I mean. Like, of course it's so interesting to think about raising kids. You know it was the same. You know my partner inherited a two year old. You know, like right off the bat, a two year old who had seen a lot of trauma and had been a part of an abusive, you know, marriage. You know, like all of those things and what does it mean to help her attach healthily to me and to my partner and all of those things.
Speaker 1:It makes it so that, like the hardship that comes with just being in relationships, it feels really good to be free to love who you actually love. Without all that. You know what I'm saying. I just can't imagine being stuck in a relationship because I felt like I had to do well. I can't imagine it. I can't imagine doing that again and I'm really excited about the ways that these, that families are diverse and the way that families are growing and like what the kids in these families are gonna be like. It's just exciting to me. I'm going on tangents, so I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it, I'm gonna ask y'all I'm gonna have you both back, probably separately, cause I have different seasons in mind but I'm gonna ask y'all, the last three, and each of you answer it like on your own. But the first one is you know, what are you bringing from the rubble? Cause I assume you're spiritual, at least right, like I would say, yeah, yeah, I'm wearing a light jacket I say called Christianity. I mean I will take the bitch off With no shame. Yeah, that part, that part With no shame. Oh, no, no, no, that's not me. But I mean I still have love, for you know the ethics and the way of Jesus, and so I guess I wear the light jacket.
Speaker 1:So before that I was wearing a boulder called white evangelicalism. What I brought with me was my love for Jesus, my love for, like, reading gospels and scriptures and stuff like that. So what are you bringing from the rubble? What are you binging? Which, by the way, man, these cult documentaries they're getting, and then some words to live by. So, whenever you're ready, in whatever order you wanna go in.
Speaker 3:Sure I can go.
Speaker 3:So I think I mentioned it earlier, but I am bringing this idea of liberation and how I think the Godhead, the universe, however you want it, whatever I think it is always bending towards us being liberated, particularly in starting always with the marginalized, and so I really love that idea and really love that reality.
Speaker 3:I don't know if I'm I don't know, I'm like still in my whole phase of like, do I have a Christian? Do I believe in this? But what I do know and what I do bring with me and I think it's been from my mom and usually it's from the faith of the elders right, I care about my mom Anytime something happens or anytime like we're going through a hard time. She just has this incredible belief that like we'll get through it and like it'll be okay. And I think I actually hold on to that, that I might not act like it and I can tell you like I get anxious or I get nervous or I like get upset, but I think deep down I know that I'll be okay and I get that from her and so I think I bring that with me. That's really good. As far as what I'm binging right now, I'm binging on Queen B. Honestly, like right now, I'm getting ready for the concert.
Speaker 1:Oh no, are y'all going?
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh yeah, she's coming to Kansas City in October and we-.
Speaker 2:It's the finale.
Speaker 3:I think she's really been got her tickets and I've been hooked a real boat, like she is just channeling a very inner, like strong woman that I'm just holding on to especially and I don't know. So I've been really like bump into her music and also I really love bourbon so I've been you know what kind Woo girl, I don't know, I like a lot.
Speaker 1:Have you tried Uncle Nier's though? Yes, I love it Right.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, uncle, nier's Buffalo Trace. Right now we're drinking on Templeton Rise. Really good, yeah, but yeah, so all the bourbon.
Speaker 1:And then so real quick, because honestly I love whiskey On that Suntory. It's a Japanese whiskey. Have you had it? It comes in a white. It's a square bottle, kind of like the Uncle Nier's bottle. It's called Suntory. I'm telling y'all, game changer, like it's really really good, I'll send you a picture when we get off. Yes, okay, yes, please.
Speaker 3:Give some words to live by. Yes, the words to live by is don't sacrifice your integrity, and I think that's actually what led me to leave the church and all of that, because I couldn't be somewhere that didn't line up with my values. And as a therapist, I think that's my biggest thing with folks and that's where you can find the cognitive dissonance sometimes is when they say they value something but are acting different, and then you're like well, what's leading into that? Right? And you kind of dissect and figure that out. And I think, for me, I'm very big on integrity and I like even if it means that I am eating ramen noodles, like I'm not gonna sacrifice it. I'm not Because I've already had to sacrifice so much that I'm done with that.
Speaker 1:Indeed, that's what I would say, Whew, this is like that hang in the air man Wow.
Speaker 2:Preacher. Right, like I told you, preacher Indeed, truly so for me. I'll go backwards. So words to live by. You know, I was thinking about this before and I was like what do I? I don't know what I will, but I said, but while Nia was talking, I was like, oh, love is a choice. And I was like, I mean, my dad was like really adamant about like understanding what you enter into when you're gonna be in a relationship. And he was like you know, you got all this baggage. You gotta be with somebody who will carry your baggage with you and you have to carry theirs. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, as I like sort of tried to be in all these relationships and they all failed. And it wasn't until truly I maybe got into like my 40s and I was like, oh, this is what he was talking about yeah, she loves someone.
Speaker 2:She's like it's not a feeling, because I'm telling you that feeling goes away. It's like freaking when you decide. I know she's like let me out, but we decide that is like that is some freedom right there. Mm-hmm, yeah, binging Bob's burgers.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love it so much I literally I was eating lunch today and I was like let me just watch the last little part of this episode. I already watched. I've seen all the episodes. I just Wanted to finish like it's a mess. Love the office, but my, but my heart right now is with Bob In his burgers.
Speaker 1:Bob is very good. I start. You know I watched parks and rec for the first time ever, like this past year, and I like it, I loved it. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like, yeah, y'all have been like incredible and I think that people are. It's just been so beautiful to watch and To have you talk about your love story, talk about your own freedom, because I think the people that are listening, I think they're navigating either They've just left, they're thinking about leaving, or they're trying to find something to troll me with and this is helpful for them. So either way, I think go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, I was thinking, like the thing that I Because you you said you're, you know the listeners right that remind me of is like, the thing that I still hold on to is Jesus, there on the Mount. Like I'm telling you my life is so much better Because I'm like, oh, I'm all in, yes, I'm oh, love your neighbor, bet, I'm here, you know, when somebody curses you, bless them. Yep, and I'm watching it unfold in my life in a way that, like, lots of people would say, like, oh, like you're, you're manifesting, or you're what I like. No, I'm being kind who are not kind to me. I Giving of myself, I'm giving of my time and my talent and my money to, to people and to causes that Enter the margins. Like we cannot do anything, like we can't, we like we can't win if we're not centering the margins.
Speaker 2:Come on, I'm all about that win and I'm like okay, how do I make my society better? How do I make my story or you know, the people who are involved in my story right, how do we make life better for each other? And that's the thing for Nya and I that we hold on to and we do it. I mean, it's not always easy at all. I mean, especially when we brought in my niece as a nephew, like I. I mean I was like done, mm-hmm, I couldn't, I could barely do anything, and Naya picked up all of the slack, mm-hmm, I think I was probably carrying like three percent and 97 and and it was truly. It's like the several on the mount that like holds me in, that keeps me Safe, that gives me that like understanding, that yeah, at the end of the day, when you care for others, when you are kind, when you Center the margins, when you, when you give bread least of these, like that's it, that's life, that's it indeed, yeah.
Speaker 1:Whoo, I'm gonna end it right there. I'm ending it right there.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to pick your money in your heart is donate to subquatcher.
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