Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
The Odyssey of Queer Identity in Religious Landscapes: Kyle Mitchell's Story
Join me on a profound journey with Kyle Mitchell, a researcher passionate about creating a corner of acceptance for queer and transgender students in nonaffirming religious schools. This conversation will not only enlighten you about his incredible research but also give you a glimpse into Kyle's personal voyage of faith and queer identity. We'll discuss the hard truths of oppressive evangelicalism and the challenges of navigating queerness within religious families.
Imagine the internal conflict of grappling with your inherent goodness while being ensnared in a mixed-orientation marriage. Kyle candidly shares that struggle, and how his unwavering loyalty to God inspired hard, but necessary, choices. We'll also delve into his upcoming dissertation, exploring the importance of privacy during research and how it is crucial to safeguard the vulnerable.
Our conversation doesn't stop there. We shed light on the critical need to support Black students and the organizations making a difference in their lives. Kyle imparts his thoughts on faithfulness to God, a crux in his decision-making process. This episode is not just about research; it's about resilience, acceptance, and the courage to be true to oneself. Tune in and be a part of this transformative journey with Kyle Mitchell.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
From the other side of toxic Christianity. I found myself faced with one question, now what this podcast is about that question? We have conversations with folks who are asking themselves the same things. We're picking up the pieces of a fractured and fragmented faith. We're finding treasure in what the church called trash, beauty and solidarity in people and places we were told to fear, reject and dismiss. I'm Tamee Spencer Helms, and this is Life After Leaven. What's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Leaven. I'm your host, tamee Spencer Helms, and this week I'm joined by Kyle Mitchell. I have just met Kyle. He is friends with my spouse, and so I wanted to kind of talk to him about some of the things that he's studying in school, what his background is and how that might play into our season this time. So welcome Kyle. Why don't you tell us who you are, what you do, where you're from?
Speaker 2:Sure, so my name is Kyle. As Tamee said, I'm getting a doctorate in psychology and I'm one year from being done studying out at Fuller Theological Seminary and School of Psychology in Pasadena, california. But as I'll probably talk about a little bit, I grew up in the Midwest, in Indiana. So, yeah, that's me, that's where I'm at and I'm glad to be here, excited I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to ask you what I asked everyone what was life like before and after you unleavened your faith?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's such a good question because I feel like it was just the water I was swimming in before. The first thing that comes to mind is like viewing myself as bad, like that was the fundamental, like before faith unleavened I was bad, like my existence was bad, my flesh was bad, my identity as a queer person was bad. It was hard to trust instincts or impulses, things like that. So, yeah, and it's sad to think about, it's hard to think about how pervasive that was and how much it colored my experience.
Speaker 1:That feels like the before.
Speaker 2:And then I think that there were things about it that I miss sometimes, like the simplicity of kind of like the structure and the rules, and I clearly know this is wrong or this is right. You know, some things didn't involve as much critical thought, which felt easy at the time, although it's not, as we know, probably how we want to live. But there's that aspect of it too, not better but simpler. And then I think the flip side of that is, after unleavening faith, recognizing myself and really trying to instill this belief in my inherent goodness, that I exist and that that is enough, like my being is inherently good, things I can create, things that flow from me are good and expansive. Yeah, and I think then, as I mentioned also, it does sometimes feel more complicated and complex and there's layers to like your existence and there's impacts that you have in the world.
Speaker 2:That like what comes out of you can also have negative impacts. So there's responsibility to it, and it's not just you, it's not your individual existence, but, like you, are part of this collective sort of impact and that comes with grief or guilt, or confusion, complexity, all the things that make existence just more complicated and not as simple, but probably more or more whole.
Speaker 1:Thank you for bringing that up, and I know that my first introduction to you was in a call that was taking place between my spouse and their siblings you and your siblings kind of processing that documentary that came out the shiny, happy people documentary and in the midst of that conversation, ellison looks at me and goes you need to interview Kyle, and so I would love, love, love, to hear more about what it is that you're studying and what you're looking into as it relates to queerness and faith. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I am working on research about how to care better for queer and transgender students in the university, setting specifically in like based nonaffirming schools, which is most I shouldn't say most, but a lot of religiously affiliated schools can be categorized nonaffirming and recognizing that schools and policies may not change or that slow change happens often. How can we intervene, how can we better understand what's going on and how can people that are in charge of student care or are supposed to oversee that, how can we do a better job of care for those queer and trans students that are there, whether we welcome them or not, or whether we fully welcome them or not?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's the focus of my research yeah. So what I mean, what kinds of things have you dug into? What have you found in your research so far related to that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is that there's a lack of clarity oftentimes in these communities. So one of the first steps that I recommend for these nonaffirming institutions is improve your clarity about the type of belonging that a queer or trans student might be able to achieve Can one day work at the institution?
Speaker 2:Can they have a same sex boyfriend, girlfriend or partner while they're? So? I think in general, there's just a need to clarify language and clarify the levels of belonging that people can have, and that'd be a starting point for improving care. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, when you, when you've talked to some of these organizations about their policies around that, do you find that it's possible for students to feel safe and cared for in a nonaffirming space?
Speaker 2:Right. So it's so tricky, because how much can we really expect people to feel that they belong if there's a non-affirming umbrella that they're existing under? But what we know is that a lot of students go to those spaces anyway and they might not feel at a point in their development that they can go to a college that would be more forming or a secular college. There's many reasons why. That is Like my parents paying for this college, or I don't want to separate my faith integration process from my sexuality. I want to believe that they belong. Even though this community isn't endorsing my experience or my identity, there's a aspect of it that I'm still seeking out or I'm drawn to, or for whatever reason I find myself there, and so I think that it's the ideal that you know that we're working in this scenario.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not, and it's extremely draining and extremely exhausting for me as a queer person to be in these spaces, but I, at the same time, feel really passionate about trying to move the needle a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does make sense, yeah, yeah. What drew you to the work? It's stuff. What drew you to kind of want to dig into this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's kind of like how deep do we want to go?
Speaker 1:Yes, deep as possible, deep as you can go in 23 minutes.
Speaker 2:Okay, right, exactly. So yeah, me being a queer identifying person, growing up in Indiana with a family that was not really like wouldn't really talk about sexuality at all, let alone any like minority sexual or gender experience. So feeling just very like conflicted myself about what is going on for me, like how do I be a person of faith when I don't feel like I belong at all? So that being kind of my growing up, developmental experience, and then going to undergrad it's a private Christian school called the University and it's okay, you've heard of it. It's in Tattanooga, tennessee, or near Tattanooga.
Speaker 1:I used to work with Lee's students.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I was in Kansas City, we had a bunch of Lee's students come out there all the time because they were building a prayer room out there, and so I trained a bunch of the leaders of the prayer room that was there. So interesting.
Speaker 2:We should talk offline at some point, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sure we know some of the same people yeah probably.
Speaker 2:But I could just say my experience there was not great and I encountered some like traumatic events in undergrad that were handled very poorly, and I didn't even really make some of those connections until later on that I'm doing this research and I'm like why do I care so much specifically about this developmental period for undergrad students? And then right now I'm doing my internship at University Counseling Center and Google is not affirming and pretty evangelical, kind of conservative, but I'm still saying all the time like I'm here to take care of your queer trans students. I want to use those for them. I want those clients to be referred to me and to say that publicly in these settings is kind of scary and at least kind of draining. People make faces. But yeah, I think it feels really important to me to do work that says no. People have deep, important faith identities, spiritual identities, and they're also queer and trans.
Speaker 2:That exists beautifully together. In fact, a lot of us are missing out by having those people cut off from community. So, yeah, individually, personally, for me it's like I am that person, these not, you know, disintegrated. Everything connects and I want to do work that recognizes that that's happening for a lot of people and and I think I feel protected of some younger people who want to have? Faith and things like that.
Speaker 1:I think that's really. I think that's really interesting when you think about how, at that age, you know that undergraduate age so much of our life is wet cement and so much of the way that we think about ourselves, about the world, about God is wet cement. Do you see a correlation between kind of some of these ministry organizations and evangelical organizations and their kind of obsession with, like, youth and young adults sort of conferences and messaging like? What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think right away of again this shiny happy people documentary and the ways that we identify vulnerable populations and try to reach out to them and get them to join a particular like organize around, a way of believing your living community and I do think that the kind of liberal arts college I almost said the word agenda- but that's what it is.
Speaker 1:It's so funny how they talk about the agenda that they're fighting, but really the agenda is the one that they're pushing. Yeah, so interesting to me. Yeah, you can say whatever you want on this show guys.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I do see that connection, yeah, and it can be overwhelming to think about honestly.
Speaker 1:How so.
Speaker 2:Just like the amount of money that people spend I think, like the way that evangelicalism can kind of like code switch Mm-hmm, yeah, so it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I've never heard that before. Even Joke-Alism can code switch. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like we, you have like this way of believing of organizing around community, that maybe you're raised up in that in your family system and then you put an undergrad and then you have like another version of that. Mm-hmm, yeah, what you're pursuing, or what the ultimate good is, is still as maybe oppressive, but it's branded differently, packaged differently.
Speaker 2:I think, like there's a lot of also progressive Christians that do a similar thing, where, like, purity culture just takes a shift, mm-hmm. So like you're still focusing on purity, but maybe it's around using like politically correct language, or yeah, but you're still not humanizing people, mm-hmm. So I think, like the fruit can still be the same. I think that's what I mean by code switching. I'm kind of forgiving, I'm kind of processing this in real time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2:But I think that's the code. Switching that can happen is like purity culture just becomes something else, or still a need for control or there, or hierarchy, or certainty, mm-hmm and so and we are drawn to what's familiar to. So again, the documentary or listening to some other like deconstruction materials. Sometimes they're drawn to like familiar patterns, familiar types of relationships or familiar ways of community, and we don't even do it purpose as adults.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of like needing to do that healing work where we let go of control and hierarchy and need for certainty, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2:And I think that's why I feel overwhelmed when I think about that is because there are such big systems.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, yeah, and it's like they build on each other. It's like when we started the episode you were talking about. You know this idea that I myself embed, and so it's almost like when you start out with a depraved sense of self and like or no sense of self.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And then these messages come to you and you're offered this forgiveness that comes from this person you never met, but apparently you're in trouble for something some people did a long time ago who ate some fruit, and that's all your fault, kind of too, and so now it's your fault that God has to kill his son, and then so you better like worship and you better receive this sacrifice, and there's so much that comes at you like I think back to being 17 and getting the message of the gospel and thinking well, I mean, of course I'm excited that I'm saved, but I didn't know. I was condemned at first. You know, like they kind of it's a very it's almost like marketing, where they kind of they create the problem that they're trying to solve, right, and so you're supposed to be sort of grateful for this. I'm wondering, though, because I know that for you, just like with Ellison, you know you will have a large family where you all were homeschooled Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So and there's been a couple of people that I've come in contact with as I've been, you know, talking about the book and things like that who have that background. In particular, queerness and coming out is a whole different animal Because it really is explosive in the family because there is so much closeness and you know, in some ways like these homeschool families that you see sometimes even in the IVIL they are insular, right Like so they're. You know they're not going to secular colleges, they're not going to secular schools. Everyone they know is either in their church or a part of their like co-op group. There isn't a whole lot of external input in terms of the kids lives, but they have these really close. You know, sort of like tight knit families, and I know for Ellison that it was that was a real painful part of this right Part of coming in and saying this is who I am, this is my name, and having to set those boundaries in a situation like that.
Speaker 1:Where do you think that that comes from? I mean, there seems to be. I talked to another girl a couple of weeks ago and it's the same thing. Her family was very close and she's kind of just changed her mind about Donald Trump. She hasn't even touched on the queerness yet, and it is like dynamite in the family. What is the way forward for folks who have that background? I mean, that's something that's been relatively foreign to me, but, as I've you know, I've fallen in love with a home schooler, so so I'm learning a lot about that. So, like what, what? What do you think that comes from?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Hold on, Kyle.
Speaker 2:You're good.
Speaker 1:Harlem Mommy's working right now. Oh, sweetie, you're gonna have to wait. Okay, it's not an emergency, all right, so we'll jump back into like where where you think that comes from? Sorry about that.
Speaker 2:You're good. My mind sees so many different layers in that. Yeah, and it's probably, hmm, yeah, I think of all these different systems of oppression whiteness, patriarchy, dualism, yes, you know all these different things that intersect that, and then it's like kind of like toxic individualism. It's like, you know, it's just me, I'm a cowboy, I'm trying to pay my own way, kind of thing. Yeah, all those different things. And the need for control it's best executed if things are insular and you don't have. You know it's, the best way to control people is to kind of like keep them inside of a bubble and not allow them to be, you know, tainted by other belief systems or other people who are different from you.
Speaker 2:And I think the whole coming out thing is so contradictory to that, because then you say like, oh, there's people that are different from us on the inside and that's a huge no, no, like that. That messes with the whole system, so people that want to come out within your bubble are viewed as so threatening. And so I think we have it's almost like where does that come from?
Speaker 1:Right, like, like, where did you get that from? If we've closed all the windows and all the doors, if we have, you know, been in charge of what you watch, what you listen to, what types of theology you're exposed to, and you come to us to say I'm queer, then it's kind of like who do you blame Unless? So at that point you have to look at this person that you've lived with your whole life or that you've raised. You've got to look that person in the eye and all of a sudden, almost overnight, determine that there's someone that they're not to make yourself feel better about your theology. And that's what I've watched happen. And it's really devastating, especially when there's no outside input. It's really no. I feel like God is telling me that I'm okay To you. Is that similar to kind of what your experience was?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have a sister that's also queer, and so both of us. It was kind of very much like, yeah, and my family's a little bit different than some maybe, in that they're more like sweep things under the rug or don't rock the boat, and so masters at like sins of omission, if you will like, and so it was kind of like we're going to hope that this goes away or we're just going to continue forward and like the system itself will take care of staying in line or staying good, but explode on you because that's just not the way my family did it.
Speaker 2:Shame, yeah, but I mean, yeah, shame is pretty powerful on its own without explicit messaging, so big motivator, so yeah, but I think that's the beautiful thing about God and his belief in like diversity of reflections of who God is is that it actually can't be controlled and it can't be, like you know, organized by an ideology or it just doesn't work. It's completely unmanageable and it will always like fall apart. And I think, yeah, no matter how insular you are, it's like human beings are just going to unapologetically like reflect God, and so you know that's the saving grace of it all, but it's also for the for people that are, you know, holders of a of a aspect of God that is viewed as bad in whatever community you're in, can be really painful, yeah, and hope people survive, but sometimes we don't, you know.
Speaker 2:So I don't really even remember what your question was per se Like where does? That. Yeah, I think it's just that that God is diverse and creation is diverse, and that can't be contained. So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly I'm wondering about the way forward for folks who have that. I do feel like that is a whole like culture within evangelicalism that I think people are not really aware of how just inconvenient a queer kid in a homeschool family could be. And you watch so many things, so many hurtful things happen as people are trying to make decisions between being faithful to what they believe is the truth and then having to deal with this person that's in front of them, that is the same person but is saying, hey, like actually God accepts me, god wants me this way, and to watch what people do in the name of Jesus, the stories that I hear, it's really disheartening, it's maddening and it really does put you in a position of kind of like saying you actually want nothing to do with this religion altogether, like if this is what faithfulness to your God looks like to reject someone in the name of Jesus, which I don't.
Speaker 1:So I don't even know how that makes sense to reject anyone in the name of Jesus, or that faithfulness would mean that you would write off your own kid, not come to their wedding, not acknowledge their spouse, not acknowledge their kid, like those types of things are happening on levels that I think would be like surprising for people and it really, it really is a shame because it feels like very much people are just stuck in this bubble, like you're saying, and at the same time, that you can have compassion because it's like they're stuck in a bubble, you know, like there's not a whole lot of opportunity besides, you know people within that structure having the courage and the honesty to confront it from within the structure and it is, it's just, it is. It's very, very hard to watch and I think that I'm hoping that typically, what starts to happen is like one person begins to be like well, I don't see the fruit of what we're saying is true, like in this person's life. You know and that's what Alison and I appealed to our families about Like would you look at the fruit of our relationship, the fruit of our life? And I know that, for for my parents, that was a helpful way forward, being able to have that conversation, and my mom is starting to come around and have conversations with me about things and ask questions, so it gives me hope.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like, where do you see hope? You know for situations like this, are you and your family? Are you guys good? Are you estranged Like, how are things? And if not, do you see hope there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I see hope.
Speaker 2:I think first and foremost in in how I feel as a person and my ability to be brave and congruent in spaces and be in places that I never thought I would be in terms of like interpersonally, where I'm able to just kind of say you know, this is who I am, this is what I believe to like a room of people that it's a very crowd, and be like I'm fine and I don't even need to take afternoon off, like you know, that kind of thing, and I feel hope first in that regard, where I'm at with my family and I should.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you're familiar with this or if you're aware. So like my sexuality is bisexual and I'm with a partner that's a straight woman, so this whole like which this angers me to no end, but like people will be like oh, you picked the right one, and so that's kind of where a lot of my family will land, or the narrative that they will Some of them, sorry and I have a big family, so people are in different places with that. So, yeah, for me there's this kind of like I have this privilege because my family accepts me more than they would if I was with a male partner or a partner that wasn't a straight woman, but I also have this constant feeling of like imposter syndrome or erasure of like.
Speaker 2:How you see me does not at all match my experience with the world and it can be painful and I had like some version of conversion therapy that, like my parents asked me to do when I was 19, 20. So there's all these kind of like things that I work through and I'm trying to navigate with my family of like. I know you see me this way as, like I arrived at where you wanted me to be but, I feel that way at all.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I've had painful conversations with my parents and some conversations that I still need to have, where I would like to be extremely clear about where I am and what I believe, and so that work is still ongoing, being able to just kind of like voice these things in. It's so funny. I feel like a lot of us will go off and do a ton of research, get degrees, things like that, but the whole time we're thinking about our family and like I'm very far from my family. Now I'm out in LA and they're in the West, but I think about them every single day in regard to this conversation.
Speaker 2:So it's like these parallel kind of narratives that happen, and sometimes they intersect. Sometimes I come up to them and I say, hey, like this is where I'm at. I really want to just be able to tell you what I'm thinking, feeling, believing.
Speaker 1:Are they relatively receptive to that or?
Speaker 2:I think. Well, again, it depends on the family member, but just going with my parents, I would say not really. I think that there's such a pull for, like, not rocking the boat, not causing disruption, that a lot of guys get put into this category of like I don't need to worry about this. I heard that you said that. But hey, you married a woman like we wanted, wow.
Speaker 1:That's really hard Because in some ways it's almost like there is a part of your identity that is not being acknowledged, you know, and that can feel hard. How about, so your wife? How was your wife with all of that? Was it something that you kind of came out before you all got married, or was it a situation where you realized afterwards yeah.
Speaker 2:So I came out before we got engaged and then we kind of processed what some of that meant. That was also, we were living in Indiana at the time and then we got married, moved to LA. We got married 2019 and then moved to LA that same summer and have had a lot of space now and a lot of invitation to explore, like, what does it mean that this is my identity and this is yours? What does it mean that this is a mixed orientation and marriage, which I like? Sometimes I don't, but I think sometimes it's a helpful term. But so what does it mean? That we're having very different experiences in the world and we communicate about everything, which I think is very helpful, but it's time to figure that out. And then, yeah, there was also a point where we weren't probably gonna make it Mm-hmm. It was kind of height of the pandemic. We were pretty isolated and in a new city, and so it was really tricky to figure out. How does all of this work? Am I being true to myself?
Speaker 2:Because I think here in LA too, there's a lot of pressure sometimes on the other end where it's like you need to know exactly who you are and you need to have your life aligned with that perfectly, and it didn't feel like there was room for me to like figure out, you know Wow yeah, wow, that's very interesting, like feeling like, well, you need the space to actually get to know yourself.
Speaker 1:I think that that's a work that I entered into after getting married and realizing, oh wait, oh, there are aspects of myself I did not know that both me and my spouse are being introduced to, and so that's a really sacred process and I'm glad that you guys are like working through what it means for you to be fully you now and what that could mean in three years and what that could mean in 30 years, and I just I think that the work that is happening in these mixed orientation marriages and that's happening between even just partners, it's been really rich to see the types of conversations that are having to be had at this time. I'm really grateful that people are doing that. But I'm gonna land our plane and ask you the three questions I ask every guest, which is what are you bringing from the rubble? So you know I've heard a little bit about your story beforehand, but if there was anything worth keeping from before you unleavened, what is that thing? Is there anything that you're binging?
Speaker 1:A TV show, a drink, a TV series? And then what are some words we can live by? So whenever you're ready and you feel like you wanna go in any order, you can go ahead and go.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I'm ready, but I'll just take it slow, sure, so what am I bringing from the rubble? Some kind of Actually you might cry Some kind of belief in innocence, because I think that sometimes, like that I was talking about the simplicity and this sense of awe and wonder about the world, or those experiences of God like awe and wonder. I think that growing up and realizing kind of all the toxicity that we're swimming in can make you also deeply mistrust in some things that are really good. So I don't know that I've fully reclaimed that, but it feels really important to reclaim that sense of innocence. On wonder, it can be really indicative of fully healing. That would be a long journey, probably ongoing journey. So yeah, I'll just say that.
Speaker 1:That's good, anything you're binging.
Speaker 2:Binging. I was trying to think my schedule has changed so much so I'm kind of binging paperwork right now. I get that that's been most of my time. Yeah, I wish I was binging other things, but haven't had time for it at the moment. I'm binging paperwork to me.
Speaker 1:Binging paperwork. That'll work. That'll work. Yeah, things are primed with the honesty, for that for sure I get that life Really going to give you an honest answer like that.
Speaker 2:I'm just looking at pieces of paper with black font on them.
Speaker 1:As long as it's not comic sans, we're okay right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's usually time to throw in or something anyway.
Speaker 1:Give us some words. Of web by Kyle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, listen to your body.
Speaker 1:Listen to your heart yeah. It's okay.
Speaker 2:Listen to yourself and then respond to what self is telling you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really, really good. I appreciate the work that you're doing. I appreciate I can't wait to read more of your research and what comes out with that. I'm really glad that I had you on the show. I think, Ella someone's right. I think you brought a perspective that we haven't heard yet onto the show. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like a therapist. I'm not that public per se. Listen to your podcast with Ellison about not wanting to be found. I was like, yeah, that's me too. There's things like Instagram that's private because clients stalk me. I will say that my dissertation will be published. That's kind of like condensed article. It should be out November. Okay, october, november. I can actually just follow up with you Awesome, yeah and give you information for any listener that would want to find that work.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the thing I would want people to look for, not my social media.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gotcha, so we'll be looking. We'll want to look out for a paper from Dr Kyle Mitchell. Hey.
Speaker 2:Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being on the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for your hospitality and good questions and good to meet you.
Speaker 1:Likewise. Thank you for listening the picture. Money in your heart is donate to Subquatcher Inc and clear the path for black students today.