Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Are Orgasms & Christian Nationalism Mutally Exclusive? I'm Asking For A Friend.
In our candid conversation, April shares her and Beecher's, her spouse, collective journey of navigating gender dysphoria and acceptance. It's a story of courage marked by Beecher's fight against denial, self-discovery with the help of a church's 12-step group, and acceptance catalyzed by the birth of their second daughter. The narrative is as nuanced as it is inspiring, highlighting the importance of a supportive partner and the power of authenticity.
As the dialogue unfolds, we explore the intersection of faith, political ideology, and sexuality, and how orgasms can be a source of joy, healing, and a powerful tool for liberation from oppressive systems. April's journey from the tightly woven fabric of Christian nationalism to a more honest and authentic way of life is one that is deeply intertwined with her political ideology. As we venture into the topics of gender roles and personal growth, April leaves us with her words to live by - love your neighbor and live your truth. Buckle up for an episode teeming with authenticity, courage, and enlightening discussions on faith, identity, and relationships.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
From the other side of toxic Christianity. I found myself faced with one question, now, what this podcast is about that question? We have conversations with folks who are asking themselves the same things. We're picking up the pieces of a fractured and fragmented faith. We're finding treasure in what the church called trash, beauty and solidarity in people and places we were told to fear, reject and dismiss. I'm Tamise Spencer Helms, and this is Life After Leaven. What's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Leaven. I'm your host, tamise Spencer Helms, and I'm actually fangirling. This week. I have April A Joy on this week and I'm really, really excited. So, april, I'm sure people already know who you are, but if you could just tell us who you are, where you're from and what you do, and then we'll jump into the episode.
Speaker 2:Sure, my name is April A Joy. I've already said I guess I've kind of fallen into social media skits I don't know videos. Sometimes I wear wigs or I just make I call it humorously detoxing American Christianity or evangelicalism. I still consider myself Christian but I'm an ex-vangelical and I call out a lot of the harm that's in the church like Christian nationalism. But I try to do it in not all the time, but I try to do it in kind of a funny way. I guess If I don't laugh I'll cry type of situation.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes. So that's kind of what I do and, as I would say, I'm a former Christian nationalist. I used to be one. So part of what I do is talk about my time in it and then compare it to Christian nationalism of today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would love to like jump into that. So the season, season two, is all, is called. You know we're here and we're queer, but I feel like having you on the show is exciting to me. So I might ask all kinds of questions that may not just center like just into queer realities, but I wanted to have you on because I mentioned the fan girling. I saw you on Instagram and the first skit I saw you do was like is deconstruction sexy? And it was like this, like very, it was just very well done and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm a fan.
Speaker 1:I wanted to talk a little bit about something else that you posted, where you're talking about you and your spouse working through what it means to kind of come out in terms of gender expression and identity, because my partner did the same. When we started dating, they were using she pronoun, she, they pronouns, and then, quickly after our dating started, was kind of like actually I'm moving more towards transmask, but I didn't know how to tell you that, and so we had to have this kind of conversation about it, and it's been really interesting to kind of like watch my spouse become themselves and like feel at home in their skin for the first time, so it's been really fun and I wanted to know, like, what's that been like for you? Can you share a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we, if I, if there's more, if you want more information, my spouse and I have our whole. We tell our entire story on a podcast called the non-binary marriage podcast. That goes into like excruciating detail because it's a very long story, but the gist is when we started dating, they their names beacher. You know. They were identifying straight cisgender male like your typical Christian guy, and I was obviously cisgender female, and so we were this kind of embodiment of your perfect looking evangelical, darling couple. You know, we got our pastor married us and it was. We came down the aisle to all sons and daughters. Like it was cringy. We actually got married at the Founders Inn, which is on the same campus as CBN and the 700 Club.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:So like when I say evangelical darlings, like oh my gosh. Yeah, it was. We were like the poster children for white evangelicalism. Um, anyway, Regents.
Speaker 1:So y'all are in your region. Y'all got married on Regents campus.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, we met at Regent.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, I grew up in Chesapeake, so we went to church in Chesapeake for a long time Cause.
Speaker 2:so when we first got married, I, um about a year in, I started working for the 700 Club and beacher was working as this like um, they were like over all the video production at a large church in Chesapeake.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, oh yeah, um. So anyway, back to the ginger stuff. I'm sorry, no, you're fine. I mean it was yeah. So about a month into us dating, beacher um confessed to me through like balling tears that when they were in fifth grade one time their mom accidentally put um their sisters clothes in their room and then they tried them on and they really like it was.
Speaker 2:They felt euphoric and they felt really happy and they didn't know what to deal with that and they completely shut it down. Like I think somewhere during this season they had also seen um some Dr Phil episode that their mom was watching about like a transition gone, like horribly wrong Um which just like scarred them forever cause they they had no concept of what transgender was. Cause even I probably grew up um a little more sheltered when it came to like my parents were a little more strict than beacher's parents, but even still like they were never around any queer people, definitely no trans people. Like if someone came out in their family, they just disappeared, like they. They never saw them again. So beacher had no idea what was going on. They had no language for it, they just thought they were a freak Um. So they really threw themselves into purity culture um and were really good at it.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, people are the best For queer people. I was super good at it and super judgmental too.
Speaker 2:Yup, yup, yup. I was like, oh, I'm going to get my boxes, um, so, anyway. So he, they tell me this, uh, a month into his dating. And I'm naive still and I have no idea what this means. I, you know, I knew gayness was wrong, but I didn't really. We didn't really talk about trans back when was it? 2012, 2013.
Speaker 2:Um so I was just like, oh, okay, that's it. You wore your sister's clothes one time in fifth grade and like they'd never done anything since. I was like, oh, that's not a big deal. Like, why are you holding on this shame? I should have known that there was something more to it, just based on, like, the complete unraveling that nature was going through Um, but we, we had no concept for it. So anyway, long story short, we start dating um and then we get engaged, but it was like no-transcript. So the way Beecher's dysphoria started manifesting was in projecting all of their shame onto me because I had to do this big confession to them of, like you know, I have had sex before marriage. You know which? I had to confess pretty much everyone I met at that point. So you know I am damaged. So before you want to like, come into a relationship with me, I did mess up.
Speaker 1:I've got flower petals out there somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my rose is scattered, oh yeah, so, anyway. So Beecher was projecting all of that onto me. We had a very unhealthy relationship for a long time. It's really a miracle that we even hate it, but yeah, so anyway, they were going through gender dysphoria. We had no concept of what that was. We had never even heard that term, so we thought it was a demon for a while we actually thought it was three demons, to be specific.
Speaker 1:Oh my.
Speaker 2:God yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't really. It's a vegetarian type of demon, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah we named them. I don't remember what they were. I know it was like the demon of lust, the demon of like sexual perversion, and I don't know if the other one was confusion or I don't know, but we had definitely had names for these demons, and Beecher was Baptist, but I was Pentecostal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were after it.
Speaker 2:I don't know how to handle a demon, so Beecher asked me I didn't just do it without their consent, but I have literally laid hands on them and tried to cast the demons out of them. Oh yeah, so not my brightest moment, and you know? Spoiler alert nothing changed, so either I was a bad Pentecostal or it wasn't a demon.
Speaker 1:You had to use the right oil. I was at IHOPKC, so who knew?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you knew about demons too. Yeah, I know about demons.
Speaker 1:I give them names too.
Speaker 2:There was like this, this like narrative, like if you name the demon, they'll listen, and it's very creative. I just list names.
Speaker 1:Just start naming stuff, jezebel and you know, you just start naming random biblical characters and calling. So that was like 2013 when they confessed and so now it's like 10 years later. What, like? Did deconstruction like kind of open the door for you all to begin to walk into that? Or how did you get to the place where you were affirming and just out about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it was a long process. We kind of eventually decided okay, this is clearly not going away, this is not a demon, and we kind of went through. We went through different waves of what we thought it was Like. First it was a demon. Then we're like well, maybe it's just like an addiction, maybe you have an addictive personality and you're addicted to women's clothes, I don't know. And then at one point we're like maybe it's just a fetish, maybe you just got a kink, you know like. But eventually we were like well, you know, maybe we shouldn't have shame, because I didn't know whenever like they would feel shame about it, it manifested in like really unhealthy ways and anger and depression. So nothing helped though. We tried all these different things and really we were doing it alone. We didn't have anyone to talk to about it.
Speaker 2:And we were pretty scared to look it up online because if it was a Christian article about it, it was like it's a demon. If it was a secular you know secular article about it, it was like be who you are, transition, and like that freaked us out at the time and we're like no, no.
Speaker 1:It is really lonely, though I mean it's like funny and hindsight, but I mean it is like deconstruction and stuff is really it's a really lonely process yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's there is no one to talk to you about it in the church because like people would just assume, oh, it's just like some kind of sex addiction and like treated feature Like they had a porn addiction which all the men had, because that's like the socially acceptable sin to have as a man in the church. But wearing a dress no, that we draw a line there. That's weird, but it's so messed up Like I remember in one of my not so bright moments I like looked at Beecher after they had just like confessed through tears that they had worn one of my dresses that day while I was gone. I was just like why can't you be addicted to porn? Like I'm a Christian guy. It's so messed up.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, this is I mean, but I think it's. What's so interesting is, like, what I love about you guys is that y'all are really honest with people about it, and I think that there's there is so much nuance to it and there is so much like there are like tiny, like homes you have to get over to get to the place where you're not only open but you're like able to help other people be open, using humor, and I think that that's like. I think that that's brilliant. I love, I just love the things that you're doing, because when people are laughing it makes you kind of realize how foolish some of the stuff you've done and believed is, but it also doesn't make you feel so much shame because you get to laugh about how ridiculous some of this stuff was. Like I really do appreciate that.
Speaker 1:So you so you're saying that you all you ask Beecher why they can't have a porn addiction and so like, was there like a? Was there like a climactic moment? Was there crux of these conversations? Like, how did it? How did it get over the line? Like over the yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'd say I probably lived in denial for the first several years of our marriage and then, after we had kids, we had our first daughter and then Beecher had a lot of dysphoria around, like me being the mom and having all these you know, like I was nursing and I was doing all these typical mom roles and they were. They were just they had a really hard time with it because they felt like it just really brought their dysphoria to the surface, which we didn't really know, but they went to a very dark, depressed state. So then at that point they were like I've got to see a counselor. But at that point we were still terrified of someone telling us it's okay to do this because we, you know Hell and sin and all the typical they want to get left behind from the rapper. So yeah, so we just found a Christian counselor, which I think was who they needed at the time, because they just needed someone to talk to about it, but really feature was educating her on Gender dysphoria and like was telling her terms that she didn't know about. So it wasn't like the most helpful and then I guess it kind of all came to a head. I mean, it was a constant Battle on and off our entire marriage. I was able to live in a little bit more of denial because Beecher didn't always share everything with me Um, not not like out of secrecy, but just because I told them like I can't handle this, on top of being a new mom and all these other things. So, 2020 Actually before, right before 2020, right before I had our second child in 2019, feature actually went to a 12 step group at our church Because, like they were, they were advertising it as it's in Sunday service.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, if you have, if you struggle with anything, it doesn't have to be drugs or alcohol, like any type of addiction. Like come to this 12 step group and blah, blah and be actually went twice and I think it was a really eye-opening for them because, like in a 12 step group, these people were like in and out of prison for like drugs, like they had been violent. It was just Like, on one hand, beecher felt better about what they were dealing with, but then, on the other hand, it just made them feel even weirder, like I can't even connect with people in a 12 step group.
Speaker 2:Wow. So, and then, when we had, we had our second daughter in 2019, and so that kind of got put on hold again for a while, because I was just like I am Survival mode. I got a newborn, and then 2020 happened, yep, and we were all home and there was suddenly like no distraction and like Beacher and I, like our whole family we lived in a pretty small house at the time, like we were all on top of each other, like there was no running from it. It was there, beacher was home all the time. Beacher couldn't distract themselves from this thing that was inside, and so we got to a very unhealthy place.
Speaker 2:Beacher, you know, had said in a few different moments, like they didn't think they wanted to live more, and so they started seeing a counselor who, like, actually specialized in gender and and like trans issues, so, and she had I don't know if she was a Christian or Did. She would like had been a Christian. She had like religion and religious trauma and all goes into that. And so beacher started figuring themselves out and like praying about it and like we were praying through the whole thing because like, but there was this one really pivotal moment In our relationship where I was not the best, like I'm great, like I'm super supportive now, but I was. It was really hard for me to accept because I want to also grew up a preacher's kid the idea of like being worried about what people would think, yeah, still Like really bothersome to me. Like people already thought I was like a Marxist because I can vote for Trump, I was like what are they gonna think of me now? Yeah, but then like my brain would be like these people already think I'm a.
Speaker 2:Marxist, just Like they already don't like me. This is they're not gonna change their opinion about me if beacher stays gender. So, but be sure, had this moment where they were just bawling down. But be sure had this moment where they were just bawling and kind of said In so many words like they just they didn't want to wake up the next morning and it just kind of like a light bulb went off in my head and so I grabbed beacher's hand and I took him into our closet and I like kind of put one of my dresses on them and I just looked at them and I was like I would rather you be alive and a dress men's clothes. And it was just kind of like I think like that's, that's what the battle is right now.
Speaker 2:It was in life and death and it was just kind of like who cares how we do presents or what they wear, like it's just fabric. And and then I was kind of like I've been so like Like hypocritical because I wear men's sweatpants like every single day. You know, no one says anything to me about it and I don't think anything of it, like what's the difference?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I mean I'd love to say I was perfect from then on out, but you know, old habits die hard and yeah a little conservative girl in me still pops up every once in a while. It's just horrified yeah, at where she's at, but but yeah. So then, be sure, came out to Realize they were non-binary, because they just said they felt kind of in between, like they didn't really feel they didn't feel male and they didn't feel female. They felt kind of both or neither, depending on the moment.
Speaker 1:I have a child calling me one second. So when a partner like is going through dysphoria, I Remember I think it's okay for me to share. But like, I remember a partner telling me how far they want to go in terms of transition and it was a really difficult moment, not because of like, not again. It was a very similar situation. Like they had someone look them in the face and say I'd rather you be dead than non-binary Like someone very close to them and it made no sense to me how anyone could say something like that, but I did. When they came to me about it, the question that I had was like, well, what does that mean about me? Because now, like, I thought I was gay. But if you're not a girl like, how do I like? What is my role in this? And I know that for me, letting them kind of go on their process of figuring out who they were actually brought up my own identity issues Do you feel like that's happening for you or happened for you when Beecher was doing their stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally. Like one of my biggest hangups about it was like what if I lose attraction for you Cause I married what I thought was a cisgender man and now you're telling me you're not that and you're gonna start presenting more feminine? And yeah, so it was definitely a conversation that we had had a lot and I so it definitely sent me on my own journey of figuring out well one, can I be attracted to, beecher presenting more feminine? And I was like does that mean I'm? Does that make me bi, does you know? So I started going to therapy myself, which also I had like a lot of hangups on just around my own sexuality.
Speaker 2:Anyway, because of purity culture. Like Beecher was great and like a super supportive partner and had been wanting me to like figure myself out for a long time. I just couldn't cause. I had this in my head that, like my pleasure as a woman didn't matter. So I was always kind of taking a backseat in our sex life. Anyway I did it like Beecher wasn't making me do that, I would just like my pleasure doesn't matter. So like I've talked about this some on my channel, but like I was 32 or 33 before I ever had an orgasm, like ever yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I thought there was something wrong with me, or I thought this was God punishing me because I had had sex before marriage. So it was just like not in the cards for me. So anyway, I had my own issues, like outside of Beecher's identity, and so I went to therapy and then I just kind of realized, I kind of asked myself, am I straight, am I bi? And then the funny thing is like, looking back on my life, I had always been attracted to women at various points.
Speaker 2:Like I would have dreams, like I didn't have sex dreams very often, but if I did, it was always with a woman, and I was just kind of it was just like this little dirty secret that I kept to myself and like that doesn't mean anything and I just convinced myself that all straight women are sometimes attracted to their friend. Yes, you know, like that didn't mean I wasn't straight, yeah. So then I was just like, oh, I guess I am bi. So, yeah, I mean it helped me realize that I'm bi, but it wasn't like Beecher turned me, that it was like Beecher finding their freedom and living their authentic self just allowed me, gave me permission to figure that out for myself when, like I would have, like me being bi would have never, like I didn't need to know that information you know prior to like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:No, it does make sense because it's like what I'm learning and what I'm loving about the ex-vangelical sort of progressive space is that we have all of these receipts and we know what we used to believe and we did it wholeheartedly because we believed not only that it was pleasing to God, but that, like, we might go to hell if we didn't. And so now that people are starting to become free, it's almost like the person that we actually are is kind of like bursting Christianity at the seams, like there is no Christianity as a container. The way it was presented to us, the container is just too constricting. And what's happening? People are healing, they're going to therapy, they're learning that like there's nothing to be ashamed of, like about myself, and what's happening is it's like almost like burst, like you're saying, it's like almost like bursting the wine skins open, like there are. We have to have new ways of framing because it feels to me like there is a movement of people being like I'm just going to be me, and it's so funny, like thinking even about attraction, like you know, sexuality, because I'm in the similar boat of like.
Speaker 1:When my partner started to talk to me about transitioning, it was kind of like, well, I just I'm in love with you. So, like I don't know, I think so. We had this joke kind of when we were dating there, like if you were kangaroo, that would be my orientation, like I, it's you right. So it doesn't matter necessarily how they present and as it's actually it's, the sexiest thing is when someone is actually in their skin anyway. So it's been really kind of a beautiful thing to like even push off the expectations of people that would say, like you have to figure out like what are you and how do you identify, cause that could change the way that I talk about. It could change for me, like I just recently have been more public about being non-binary, but I'm presenting, I'm saying that I'm a non-binary black woman because to me, being a black woman in America is ontologically a thing. It is there's like a legacy and a history and a richness to black womanhood that I'm like not going to part with, although I don't feel like I myself am a girl, and so I feel like there's so much freedom for us to kind of like figure things out.
Speaker 1:I'm curious, though, cause some of the stuff that you're saying I'm like yo, like evangelicalism is really it's really harmful Hearing you talk and I'm like gosh, we believe some really horrific things about God actually. So how do you feel like you? What happened for you in terms of your faith? Like, where did you get to the place? So you said you didn't vote for Trump, but you were a Christian nationalist. Can you tell me how did you exit?
Speaker 2:Like what happened? Okay, so how did I exit? Well, trump was a big part of that exit because I mean, I was a pretty diehard Republican, you know, equating Christianity with voting red many times, as like most white evangelicals I feel like do. But yeah, so, flip side, like outside of Beecher, in 2015, so about a year before the, you know, the election, one of my brothers came out to me as gay and so that kind of I was kind of like deconstructing sexuality because of my brother and gender because of Beecher, kind of simultaneously at the same time, but I don't really know how to explain it. It was like a 10 year process from getting out and I think the first thing that opened my eyes.
Speaker 2:So I think, when you're a Christian nationalist, my faith was so interconnected with my political ideology like they were one and the same, so that, like so in 2011, my dad died of cancer. We believed he was going to be healed because we were Pentecostal, so I, and then, when he passed away, it was just kind of like, oh well, clearly just having enough faith doesn't mean God's going to answer your prayer. That's wrong. I was taught that. I believe that that is clearly wrong because that didn't happen for me. So I started deconstructing Pentecostalism and like being charismatic first and like faith healing and all that stuff and so. But because it was so interconnected, it was like little chinks of everything kind of started to unravel like little by little over several years.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I wish I could point to like one big moment, but I think one. It took me a while to even realize that I had been a Christian nationalist and I think my like I started understanding Christian nationalism.
Speaker 2:Like I knew Christian Trump supporters were definitely Christian nationalists, like there's no world in which Trump is God's chosen and you're not a Christian nationalist, but I know. But then I had this epiphany while I was watching the live news on January 6th, you know, and you see people like beating a cop and they had like a blue lives matter flag behind them. It was like make that make sense. And then so many Jesus signs and flags and like even like the prayer rally that they had had like leading up to January 6th and like I just the language that they were saying was so familiar Like I was just like, oh shoot, I was a fricking Christian nationalist. And it was like this moment, like if my life had played out differently, could I have been there.
Speaker 2:And then it was even more alarming because I don't know if you know the Texas realtor that got arrested. She had tweeted that there was no way she would go to prison because she was white. She did go to prison. Granted, it was only for like 60 days, but still, anyway, she went to my dad's church and so, and then Beecher actually knew do you remember Zip Tie Guy? Yeah, oh my gosh. He went to Beecher's youth group in Georgia and so it was kind of like this like okay, if you went to church in the South and you were white, your chances of knowing someone arrested in the insurrection like really shoot up. We knew two people, both from church, both in the South, like oh, shoot, okay, well, that could have. Just, it was like this eerie, like ew, like I am so close to that, even though I didn't storm the Capitol.
Speaker 2:It was kind of like well, I could have, like my circumstances had been different and I didn't wake up earlier and start seeing the humanity and people that thought differently than me. That could have been me and that was a very like eye-opening, scary and humbling realization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting to me too, because I know I'm not keeping you, I'm not keeping you, but it's interesting to me because I think I knew people who was there and that said, there was a girl I can't remember her name, probably shouldn't say her name she was being interviewed on the news and I was like, oh my gosh, that girl was on my prayer team.
Speaker 1:Like we used to meet so we had these like side rooms in the prayer room where I was when I was in Kansas City and this girl and I used to get up in the morning and like pray together for revival and I'm like she's on the news on January 6th talking about how Jesus is coming and how this is and I'm like for me it was a little bit different. Obviously it was Trayvon. Trayvon Martin was what kind of woke me up to it.
Speaker 1:And so interesting to me that like the only reason that like a white supremacist and like a person from our prayer team would be in the same place as white Jesus, like that's the only thing they have in common. And that's when I'm like that's what I'm kind of like trying to help people understand now is like that this thing there weren't. It seems like, and what people I feel like want to do is go like there's no way I would have done January 6th, or like there's no way I would have been involved in something. Like you know not being on the side of civil rights in the past, but I'm like look at the issues that we're facing right now. These are civil rights issues and so you would have done then what you're doing right now. Like how are you engaging these issues now?
Speaker 1:So it feels to me like it feels to me like there is very much a moment where people are going wait, like I signed up for Jesus, but I didn't sign up for this, and people are kind of of their own volition, like you're saying, like in what world is Donald Trump God's candidate?
Speaker 1:And I feel really kind of grateful for folks who are like wait a minute.
Speaker 1:One of these things is not like the other and getting it on their own and then going so far as to go on healing journeys, go to therapy and then begin to talk about it and share their receipts.
Speaker 1:Because I feel like there are so many people who are, who are stuck in a really toxic belief system and don't know how to get out, and I feel like what I'm loving that you're doing folks like Tim, like what you guys are doing is really helping people kind of see the fallacy there that I think a lot of times people of color are just have been so like buried underneath so much toxic theology that those voices don't really break through right away. And so what you all are doing is really opening the door for people to begin to learn from other people and hear from other people and see other perspectives. And I'm like I'm just like super, super grateful for you, super grateful for your humor. If you could talk about, like kind of where you all are at now, like you're out, you've got a platform, you're helping people understand these things. How would you describe, like your marriage today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's like one of the more surprising things is, when you're really in evangelicalism, you kind of have this like worst case scenario idea in your head, like, oh, if I come out, then this is gonna happen, this is gonna ruin our marriage, we're gonna lose community, we're gonna lose everything. And you know to, to be fair, like be sure, lost their job. When they came out, they were out of Christian College. We did like we pretty much lost our church Community. Like they were, they would want to get like the one final coffee, the coffee day.
Speaker 2:Coffee day where they heard, you know, heard our heart, but really they were like what about sin? Like what about it? Um, which is really interesting. Just this is a sidebar, but it's funny to me Anytime we talked to like an evangelical pastor, like our pastor, or like Beecher's boss, who was also like a pastor for a long time, the thing that they would come to like be should be like you know, I just I feel like the fruit of what's happening, speak so much like I'm happy, I'm at peace, our, like our marriage has never been better, and almost every time they would respond like yeah, but it's life about being happy, right, and then you realize like they're not happy and Us finding happiness is really triggering for people who are still in it, which is why they've got a like oh well, they're just living in sin. There's pleasure in sin for a season and like they have to write it off.
Speaker 2:Um, anyway, just like I had said, our marriage really has never been better. Like we just Before, even even before Beecher came out, like we tried to fit gender roles that Society and like the church had put on us. Like I felt like, as the wife, I was my job to do most of the cooking and the cleaning and Even though, like I, worked full-time when we first got married, I still was like, oh, I'm have to be the domestic one and beater, like and I'm not a good cook like I, I overtook, cooked the kitchen, the chicken. I over salted the beans. One time I try to make a casserole but I put the plastic lid on it, so just melted in the oven like on the cat. Like I'm not a good cook, but I tried really hard because I felt like I had to or like I would fail as a woman if I couldn't. Meanwhile, beater is like an amazing chef and loves cooking. Like we were. Just like fighting against our natural strengths.
Speaker 2:Yes, we felt like we had a fit our gendered boxes. Yes, so even outside of like gender Beecher's gender identity, we already, like I've. I was grew up like at the time that people would have called me a tomboy. Like I have much more masculine traits than a lot of. At least like society. Things that makes me think like these are not masculine traits, these are just traits that indeed people, some people have and some people don't.
Speaker 2:So, but now We've, like, beecher, pretty much cooks all of our meals because, like I mean, I'll do it every once in a while I need to, but, like be sure, does most of the cooking I do the dishes.
Speaker 2:I would rather. I would rather do the dishes than cook the meal. Yeah, I get like super in my head of like pressure, like what if this is terrible? And kind of like this is terrible and because it has been terrible many times in the past, and like beater, just we're just like open, like yeah, beach does the cooking and there's like not the shame behind it, like before we have to be like yeah, be sure, just like they're like.
Speaker 2:We have family members that are like April doesn't cook, like I'm like horrified, I'm like trust me, you don't want me to cook.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting how I mean I can't imagine I have deep respect for you because I'm like I. I grew up in a black family so there was a relative amount of like common sense for some stuff, but like to be that deep in it. It's probably very hard to walk away because you're walking away from from a lot. I'm watching my. My partner was home school, large family like.
Speaker 1:The explosiveness of just saying I'm non-binary. I'm still me, I'm just non-binary in the way that their family just blew up. There is a, an amount of deep respect I have for folks who are like just let it blow up then, like I'd rather be happy and free than like Bound to this. So I appreciate you and like totally gonna gas you up from here on out. I'd share all of your stuff. My final questions that I ask everybody are you know, what are you bringing from the rubble? So if there was something worth keeping from what you had before, what is that thing then? Like, what are you binging like a show or whatever? And then what are some words we can live by, and so you can do that in any order. Okay, what am I keeping from the rubble?
Speaker 2:I would say Jesus like, not the white one, like the actual, like classic Brown Jesus, that was Middle Eastern. Oh Jesus, yeah, exactly I. I still very much adhere to the teachings of Jesus and I think he's super rad. And if we actually were following Jesus, a lot of our problems in the church would not be a problem. So that's what I'm keeping. What am I binging? I would say, the best show that I've seen recently, with Silo on Okay you're the second person that has said that show.
Speaker 1:Actually, yeah, it's a, it was sci-fi but it was like really it was the first show in probably a year, so that like I couldn't wait to watch the next episode because there's cliffhangers and it was like Currently though I've already finished that, but currently I'm watching Dave Do you have your name, dave?
Speaker 2:on. It's a an FX show, but it's on Hulu, but it's about little Dickie who's a white rapper like he's a real rapper, but then he's dope too. Yeah so the show is based around little Dickie, but it's it's a fiction show, so it's kind of like how Seinfeld's about Jerry Seinfeld, but it's yeah, that's what Dave is.
Speaker 2:It's so funny but it's like it also dives into like rap culture and Like it does a lot of fun stuff with like racial commentary, but like in a heavy fun way also at the same time. But it's, I really, it's really. This season is really funny Okay cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's some words we can live by, oh gosh.
Speaker 2:What are some words we can live by? I feel like when I was evangelical I would have had like, so many like just give it to God.
Speaker 1:You could literally be smoke weed every day.
Speaker 2:Okay cool. I would just say, like, live your truth and love your neighbor. Honestly, like I feel like loving your neighbors, like what I keep going back to, like if you just love people, all the other stuff just doesn't matter. Like just to see like someone for their who they are, for their core yeah, not based on what I think someone should be or not, but just real learning to accept people for who they are and not some preconceived notion that society's told me to put on people so good.
Speaker 1:Yo, thank you so much. I think you're dope. I'm thankful for you. I'm thankful that you and Beach are happy. I'm thankful for orgasms. I hope you get orgasms 30, 60, 100 fold. Amen, I really appreciate you. Orgasms for the world. Man, like that's the thing. I did queer theology recently and I was like you know, if you've had an orgasm, you want orgasms for everyone, like orgasms for the world. So everybody that's mad. I think they're probably just not having orgasms.
Speaker 2:I think so too, because our orgasms matter. They do. They feel like they make little shirts. My orgasm matters, mom. Mom's orgasms matter too. Thank you for listening To pick your money and your heart is donate to subculture.
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