Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Embracing the Sacred Self: Dr. Christena Cleveland on Spirituality, Identity, and Liberation
When Dr. Christena Cleveland steps into the space of spiritual discourse, she carries with her an air of transformation that's both inspiring and deeply moving. Her journey, marked by a pilgrimage to the Black Madonna and the profound revelations documented in "God is a Black Woman," opens up a dialogue about spiritual liberation that transcends institutional confines. Together, we traverse the landscape of her evolution, from navigating the evangelical church's power imbalances to awakening to a deeper truth, offering listeners an intimate look at the quest for hope and the significance of embracing the fullness of one's body and spirituality.
Confronting the complexities of identity within the realm of spirituality presents its own set of challenges and triumphs. As I relate my own experiences with internalized misogyny and reconciling a non-binary identity with the divine feminine, Dr. Cleveland and I share an exchange that affirms the sacredness inherent in each of us. This conversation stretches beyond the roles we're often prescribed in white-dominated religious communities, shining a light on the necessity of finding internal validation and redefining what's traditionally considered sacred within our identities. Expect to be guided through a maze of resistance and pushback, and emerge with a reaffirmed belief in the inherent worth of blackness, femininity, and non-binary-ness.
Dr. Cleveland's insights serve as a beacon for those navigating their way through the complex tapestry of spirituality and identity, offering a path towards liberation that is both personal and universal.
Christena Cleveland, Ph.D. is a social psychologist, public theologian, author, and activist. She is the founder and director of the Center for Justice + Renewal which supports a more equitable world by nurturing skillful justice advocacy and the depth to act on it. An award-winning researcher and author, former professor at Duke University’s Divinity School, Dr. Cleveland is an avid student of embodied wisdom.
Dr. Cleveland’s Patreon learning community: https://www.patreon.com/cscleve
Dr. Cleveland’s website: https://www.christenacleveland.com/
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
All right, what's up everybody? Welcome back to this episode of Life After Levin. I'm your host, tamise Spencer Helms, and I'm joined by the one and only Dr Christina Cleveland. I'm gonna read the bio at the end of the episode, but I just wanna introduce Dr Cleveland. Have you say whatever you're wanting people to know about you today? So then we can jump into this episode of how just really grateful I am to you and what you've put out into the world so welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's an honor to be here. Thank you for having me and you're kind of from like the before. Yes, so it's nice the before time, so it's nice to connect with people from the before time who are also still in the after time, Cause a lot of those folks wrote me some hate mail and then pieced out out of my life which I mean good riddance but also there's a lot of transition and change.
Speaker 2:That happens when we go on a liberation journey and not everyone is able to come with us, so it's nice to be on a journey with you Likewise. So, everyone.
Speaker 1:I met Dr Cleveland. I obviously knew who she was, but I was a part of the 2019, I think cohort.
Speaker 2:CJR Before the pandemic.
Speaker 1:I know yes, right, and I mean literally had just moved from Atlanta back to Virginia, had just gotten my kid out of the NICU, and I don't know even what it was. I think it might have been a conversation we had offline. It was like some sort of interaction. I was like I think I want to learn in this direction from here on out. And then I got invited to do the cohort, did the cohort and learned about so many different ways of doing spirituality. I mean, you introduced me to Angel Keota Williams, pixie Light.
Speaker 1:It was just like these ways of being that initially felt new to me but I think eventually pretty much saved me out of an abusive marriage. So I was married when I came in and I was in a very, very abusive marriage when I came in 2019. But I think that that time for me was so pivotal because it was the first time anyone asked me. I remember being in there and thinking are we about to come with our theology and stuff like that? And we were just around the house talking about like clothes and food. And then you're like, all right, everybody, we're just gonna listen to our bodies. I was like, what Like?
Speaker 2:if the devil is a lie.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Listen to our what.
Speaker 1:I was talking about the body and evil I mean literally that was the first time anyone invited my body into any kind of spiritual or religious space, and not that that was a religious space, but just it was the first time my body was invited anywhere. And so what I mean I end up talking about in the book and what I've been constantly talking about is like that initial it makes I was emotional coming into the thing. So if I get emotional it's fine, but that initial experience was the first time somebody said your body is a part of this process, and so I'm just so appreciative to you for that. And you've just written this book God is a Black woman, which is just profoundly prophetic and powerful, and I think I'd love to talk a little bit about, like the pilgrimage that led up to that and kind of the thesis behind that and where it came from.
Speaker 1:Where did the book come from for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think it came from this question that I had is there any hope? I mean, I think maybe you first encountered me at Urbana, which was, I think, in 2016,. But I was sort of like peak evangelical house Negro, and so I had worked for my early 30s to my mid 30s to build a platform, hopefully of positive influence. I'd written a widely read book for the church. I was doing so much to try to make a difference in the evangelical church didn't realize at the time that I was just getting played. It became increasingly aware, but at the very beginning I just thought oh, I just wanna help people. I wanna be at these multi-ethnic church conferences and help people. I'm surely the only reason why they aren't doing better is because they don't know better. Like that was because I'm a very earnest person, and so it's like, oh, now I know better, Okay, I'm gonna do better, like that.
Speaker 2:But in over time I started to realize, oh, they, they, they are actively rejecting the truth because they're holding on to power. And so I was basically as high as you could possibly go in the evangelical world and still have a vagina. It's like that part. You know, I was, and actually someone recently right around, when I went on my Black Madonna pilgrimage, someone interviewed me who was writing a book about women and power in the church, and I was in the like outliers chapter. Because their whole thesis of their book was that if you're a woman and you want to have power in the Christian church, particularly the evangelical church, you have to either be married to a man who has power or you have to be backed by an institution that has power. So like they had done all this research where it's like, oh, lisa Sharon Harper has a voice because she's backed by sojourners, or like I forget her name but like the wife of the mega church pastor in Chicago, it's like she has power but it's because she's married to this mega church.
Speaker 2:You know, so I was in the weirdo chapter of like women who randomly had some power, even though we weren't associated with any man or institution. Yeah, and so you know I was doing all the things. But then, between the Black Lives Matter movement and Me Too and Trump getting elected, I was just like, okay, this is a dead end. Like it was almost my spirit knew, but that was the writing on the wall, the culmination of all of those events. So around 2015, 2016,. At that point I was still. I had like I was booking like 18 months out. So I was still speaking at these events, even though I like didn't believe any of the things. Like inside.
Speaker 2:I'm praying during, like the worship time. You know what I mean? It's like these totally gross lyrics that I completely disagree with. But I'm here anyway cause I gotta make money. Exactly, I had already committed. So that's really. I was just so disillusioned, so hurt, and I've just finally woke up to the reality that I was just getting played, that I was just a mascot. I mean, it's kind of similar to Malcolm X's autobiography where he's just like I'm just a mascot here. And MLK eventually realized yes, you know, when he went to the Congo and was like, oh, liberal white people are still the worst. Okay, I actually need to start caring about poor black people, pure black people. And then he was killed, you know. But you know it's interesting, cause my awakening was right around the same time of MLK. So I'm like, okay, I'm right on time. I'm like I'm in the 40s, I've not thought about that?
Speaker 2:Wow, no, okay, Cause you know it's easy to think. Not, I think time is an illusion anyway, but in a linearity is obviously a figment of the white patriarchal imagination. But it's, you know, it's nice to just be reminded. Like we all, our journey is sacred.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no matter when you know when we get to the truth. But so I just was like I need, I need, I need. I need an image of the divine that relates to my experience as a black woman. And so that's why I went, that's why I started looking for those images. Pretty quickly I found the black Madonna. I was shocked that she's out there and I hadn't heard of her. I mean, I didn't grow up Catholic but still I mean she's quite famous. It felt, it felt like a conspiracy. I hadn't heard of her, especially given how many white Jesuses there are and how white Jesus is completely not real.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I just so that, yeah, it was, but it was desperation. It was like can I believe that? Like you know, we're taught that God is with us, but is.
Speaker 2:God with us and who? If so, who is that God? And also I need an image of that guy Like I. You know it was helpful. I read a ton of liberation theology before I went on my personal journey to the black Madonna, so you know that was empowering. To read the mi hatistas, to read the black feminists and the womanists, to read the James Cones, to read the Palestinian liberation theologian and the or naim matig, naim matig, and yeah, and so like it was helpful for me to see.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can essentially breathe my own embodied imagination into this text and pull out the themes that heal me. I had seen that with these other liberation theologies and so I knew this is. I think at the time I was concerned is this legal? You know what I mean Like is this something that I can actually do? But now I'm not even concerned about that anymore. I'm like not if it feels good, because I think feeling good is a little too consumeristic. But now my litmus test is does it open me to love Love for myself, love for others or love for the divine?
Speaker 2:If that's a yes, we're gonna keep going, regardless of whether tradition agrees or society agrees or patriarchy agrees or even if my body I mean even if I feel scared it's like, oh, I can feel it opening me to love, so let's keep going. It's a totally different approach than well. This isn't in the creed, it's more. Or this isn't what my pastor said, this isn't you know.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting because I'm seeing so many people begin to be like, wait a minute, the math is like. The math is not mathy and, if I'm honest, math is mathy for a really long time. And there's so many people in that space of like. I feel like even in my writing, in the way that I'm trying to put things out in the world right now, it's about like look, you've got the courage and the permission to leave this. It's toxic and you know it's toxic. You can feel that it's toxic. It's not producing life and we don't have objective certainty about any of these things.
Speaker 1:And so why would we hold to something that is like oppressive to someone or violent, when you don't even have like actual, absolute, objective truth to back that up and like? So how many people like name that cognitive dissonance and then also see like even in the text of like well, what are the scriptures say? How do you read them? Like that's in the text, like there's this real permission to like figure out what this is saying to you, and like I feel like there's so much of a need for the I guess that gap to be bridged between people who are like starting to feel uncomfortable and like looking across and seeing all of these bodies of work and being like I don't even know how to make it to that body of work. I'm trying to kind of like build the bridge, to like there is so much out here. Just keep on coming, you know. Just keep coming, you'll find it. I feel like that's what happened with me in 2019 and 2020. And then I think about, in particular, dealing with the divine feminine and how troublesome that was to me until I read the book, because I didn't realize how much well, there was two things I didn't realize obviously how much misogyny was embedded in me right Like that's number one.
Speaker 1:But then there was this weird relationship that I've just started to have these conversations with myself about oh, like being non-binary and feeling like how do I relate to black women, black womenists? I don't feel like I'm a black when I don't feel like I'm a woman. And so even reading, like even reading your book like I have maintained this idea, I am a black woman because ontologically I'm a black woman, like I feel like I live and move in the world that way, even if I don't feel like that's my gender identity right, like I think it's more than a gender. At this point, being a black woman is like magic or some sort of like. I don't even know how I would describe it. But what was that journey like for you? Because I know that you've talked before about how you've basically and actually at the thing you said, my blackness is not up for debate and you were like pushing back on you living into that, like can you say a little bit more about that, your own relationship with your blackness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think one of the reasons why encountering the black Madonna has been important for me is because it's taught me that I'm sacred too, and I think that's why so many of us were in those white spaces for so long, because we thought that our sacredness was contingent upon us serving in those spaces and being faithful, being useful, giving, serving, doing ministry, taking up our cross.
Speaker 2:I remember getting abused over and over and over again in those spaces and holding on to this toxic truth that this black evangelical taught me, which was that, well, reconcilers are bridges and bridges get stepped on. And so I was like, okay, like I have a whole spirituality to support this abuse, like I'm, you know, I was just like, okay, then that's what I need to be, is be that person who gets stepped on. And so I think, when I was talking about you know, whenever I would say something like my blackness is not for debate, or my femaleness or, in your case, my non-binary-ness, I can be whoever I wanna be in any moment, and that's not up for debate. It comes from an internal connection to my sacredness, which is not up for debate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so any. I love what James Cone said. He said blackness is the image of God and black people, and I think that black, like I think of the black Madonna as the image of God, and black femininity. Which people of all genders? Yeah, well, she represents all of us, you know, regardless of our gender identity. And so if my sacredness is not up for debate because the divine is in me, then my blackness is not up for debate because that's just the divine working through this particular aspect of my identity. Well, yeah, which isn't to say that, like, everything that comes out of my expression of blackness is inherently good. Right, we still need to be in community and be accountable, but I think this idea that there's some hierarchy that's telling me whether I'm good or not, as opposed to that coming from my internal process and then in loving community with people who know me well and love me well and are not problematic, speaking truth and or affirmation right, and sometimes it can be both. And so there's just so much that I'm not like.
Speaker 2:I just look back at like before I left the evangelical church I was serving at. This one church claimed to be a multi-ethnic church, don't they all do right? In retrospect. I'm like every ministry. There were no ministries for me. Every minute, I started every ministry in that church that was for me. I started a ministry for single people, even though the church was over half single, of course they had no ministry for single people. I started that. Hundreds of people were going to the ministry that I volunteer led. I started a ministry for black people and no point.
Speaker 2:I was so disconnected from my sacredness and my embodied truth that at no point did I ask myself why am I doing the most for a church that's doing nothing for me? Why do I go to a church where literally I have to create the ministries that are for me, when on the masthead it says multi-ethnic or whatever? And I'm still interested in tracking down that church because I was giving sacrificially in quote to their building fund In voice Okay, most interest but we used to talk about that as an investment. I was an investor and I want to sell my shares and get out.
Speaker 1:That was good to show.
Speaker 2:I thought that my sacredness came from. I think I wrote a line something like this in my book faithfulness meant being faithful to everyone but myself. That part, yeah, and I literally thought that that was where my salvation, my goodness, was coming from and that's why I think so many of us were in those spaces for so long and that's why there are a lot of people who are still in those spaces. The number one okay, the most pushback I get from anybody around my book is obviously white women. I think white men don't even they're so triggered by the title they don't even come near it. White men are like straight up triggered by the title, like just seeing it in Barnes and Noble or whatever, I saw a monster like a goblin. That's so true. White women have issues with it because white women love the Black Madonna and they don't like that.
Speaker 2:I said she's not. I don't know what you're trying to do with her, but I'm not there for it. But the second largest contention of people who have issues with my book are church black women, and I can relate to that. I mean, if I had handed 25 year old Christina my book, how did they get behind me saying like what is this? Like this, is that slippery slope they're talking about?
Speaker 1:It is right here. This is it right here.
Speaker 2:This is that slippery slope they're talking about and this is why we can't really listen to women, because women are so straight. So I get it, because I think, you know, many of us were not taught. We don't have the tools to be spiritually adventurous. Yeah, we don't have the tools to ask questions beyond what we've been taught to ask, and we don't have a divine who can hold space for all that Scary monster controlling God. And we learn pretty quickly. You know, I think I tell stories in my book, but almost everyone's like oh, I know that story, like the. You know the woman who gets pregnant out of wedlock and how the church treats her, whether it's officially or unofficially, or you know, you just see you see this happens when you don't follow the rules Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm like you. So you mentioned something about is this legal? And I want to go back there. But I was thinking about how a person gets to this place where they feels I'm going to mumble through this a little bit but like it feels very much like you get to the end and like white evangelicalism, whiteness, patriarchy all that toxicity took so much from me that I had nothing left and in this place of just being completely like, run down and empty, I had to resurrect myself. Like I had to decide whether I was going to live like this or get up and like just completely different.
Speaker 1:And there was something very powerful about saying what I would not worship anymore. I just won't worship that God and the agency it was almost like every little bit of agency I took. It was like, oh my gosh, like I'm coming alive, like I'm being resurrected in a way, but it wasn't an external thing that was resurrecting me, was like I'm not going to stay down for this, I'm not going to put up for this and I'm not going to worship a God who does this like, and for me that felt like some similar to the like. Is this legal? But I wonder if, like, people just get driven like. They get driven to the point of like. I cannot. This is taking too much of my life from me, is taking too much of my vitality for me. And you talked about, like, that question of like. Is this legal for me to do? I know one story. There was definitely like stepping over the thing and run by the long to go, but like in terms of like in terms of like is this radical?
Speaker 2:is this yes? And also, you know, I mean early on I had questions about my salvation and I think that's that's one of the first blocks that people have, because we're so scared of going to hell that we don't even ask ourselves if we believe in hell. It's so true, we believe in a divine being who would send us to hell. We believe in a divine being who you know. So I think, in that sense, early on, it was like is this legal? Like because I was concerned that my salvation was on the line. Yeah, and I know people who are in that place. It's terrifying.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I know that we're like hitting our 30 minute mark, so I don't even know how to do this in a cute way, but I want to talk about a little bit more about the historical roots of like black Madonna and where the trips are coming from, like what, what goes into them and what are you hoping that that people gain from that. What are you trying to curate in that way?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when, when I first encountered the black Madonna, I want to say in like 2016 was probably the first time my whole my whole body chemistry changed. I feel like I feel like I was from viewing images online. I realized I had been holding in my breath my whole life. Wow. And in that moment of just seeing this sacred being who looks like me, and then starting to read the stories, the historical stories about these black Virgin Mary's that are like technically housed in the Catholic church but are we like in Catholic really? I mean, like it's they're created by all sorts of folks and like I just I was so transformed just by knowing that they exist.
Speaker 2:I had just been surrounded by negative images of black women, the media or what's even said in pulpits. I mean, I don't know if you've read Tamara Lomax's book, Jezebel Unhinged, but she basically wrote a whole book about like misogyny in the black church Good, and she her other. So there's one about misogyny in the black church that's called Jezebel Unhinged, and her other book is about Tyler Perry and how he's misogynistic, and so like she's really interested in which, I'm like I see no lie. Like she's really interested in looking at misogyny within black spaces, and so I'm realizing I'm not safe from the white male God gaze, even in my home or even in black churches. That was. It was so powerful for me to encounter this image of the divine that stands against those ugly representations that we have.
Speaker 2:And you know, honestly, it wasn't until one month before my book came out that I even learned that in 2006, Bell Hooks wrote that black people need to reclaim the black Madonna. Wow, and I didn't know that. She actually had this like really strong devotion to the black Madonna and was transformed when she went to go visit a black Madonna when she was in college. She went to visit the black Madonna of Montserrat and had this like really powerful experience, and so she wrote black Americans need to reclaim her to stand as an icon of resistance against all the ugly, hateful representations that black women deal with. Wow.
Speaker 2:And so when I went on my walking pilgrimage 400 miles to visit 18 different black Madonna's in France, every single one of them changed me. Every single one has a different story, has a different look, has a different vibe, has a different, and so you can just stand before them, and this is where I'm grateful for my Pentecostal roots, because I could just be like okay, God, I'm here, do something, I'm home, I'm home. The people ask me what of your roots do you really appreciate? And I'm like there's no way I could have gone on that pilgrimage without being a Pentecostal kid, Like because you were like Kojik Worlds.
Speaker 1:He won one of those. Oh, totally exactly.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's like, if you know, it wasn't the Calvinist church that God did do anything. That part, yeah, it's like. That's so Pentecostal, to just be like, okay, like I don't really know what we're doing here, but I know we're gonna do something, yeah. And so that's what I did, and I had these really powerful experiences, and so now I finally have the opportunity to take black women and black non-binary people, who the black Madonna's, and to, just as a community, be with them and do that work that all hooks our ancestors telling us to do, which is reclaim them for ourselves.
Speaker 2:It is a matter what the church says about the black Madonna. It doesn't even matter what I say about the black Madonna. All that matters is like what do we need now? How is she moving through us and how can we be in conversation with that? So, yeah, that's why, in May, I'm taking our first trip. It's just opened up black women and black non-binary binary people, but I'd love to be able to open it to any black people eventually. Yeah, we're just so few spaces for black women and non-binary folks that I wanted to make sure that we held that sacred.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's something honestly to me. I'm thinking about just being in France and how so many people who were like freedom fighters or who offered ideas to America like, took respite Listen you know what?
Speaker 2:It's an interesting place because I don't think there's a country that's more racist than France.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Honestly, or more problematic than France. Even Britain, like I mean France's colonial history is like yes, I mean I guess we don't need to play oppression politics. I mean Olympics, but I mean I just remember even last week when the US was like the one country that voted against the referendum to do a ceasefire in Gaza and France voted for the ceasefire and people were like even France would France would Right, I love you. I think historically, france is usually on the worst side ever, and so it is interesting that black Americans have often found I wouldn't call it a safe space but, a space.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just find that interesting, yeah, especially artists and creators. We're just being in the States was just too much for the US, making it impossible for them to even create. Yeah, and you see the James Baldwin's and the Josephine Bakers and the folks going over to France and I think I enjoy that privilege too. When people first see me, they assume I'm North African there, and once they hear me speaking English or they see my passport, it's like an entirely different interaction. So it's very anti-black, but there's a space for black Americans due to our privilege as Americans.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, thank you so much for just who you are and the way that you. I'm not used to people being so kind and joyful and filled with light, but also so fierce, and I hate to say it, but there seems to be an aesthetic in our heads but for you to be such a person of so much light and to be light you bring that kind of an energy but to be so fierce and to say I mean, the name of the book is God is a Black woman, that's a big fuck. You, I mean, and I just was like yes, and so I just appreciate that, because I think there are people who need that now and who will be glad it exists once they finally get brave enough to leave as well. They'll be glad that it's there for them, waiting for them to tell them you're OK, it's OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Yeah, you know what I actually had planned on telling much of my story in the book when I first wrote the proposal. It was just like most. It was basically just going to be like a practical theology, you know, much like this. But then my editor said actually we want you to share about your pilgrimage too. So I actually went on the pilgrimage just for me and didn't have any intention to share it. But then I ended up sharing my story and I'm glad I did, because I think other people's stories of liberation have inspired me. So I'm glad that my book is a story so that people can see that they can do this themselves. And I don't really care if people believe if that God is a black woman, like I mean. I think it's good for all of us to believe that.
Speaker 2:For a lot of reasons but I really I just want people to know that they can go on a journey to find their sacredness and find themselves in the divine. And when that happens, everything changes. And what you said about being light and kind even though I'm fierce that wasn't always the case, I mean, that's come from me finding myself in the divine I'm just a lot less scared. The world is less scary to me because God is a black woman. And if God is a black woman, it's handled Like frankly, when people say, how do you know for sure that God is a black woman, I'm like I don't, just like you don't know for sure, just like you don't know for sure that white Jesus is white. And also you never asked that question, you never asked the white Jesus people out and you know for sure that he's white. So anyway, but I don't and I'm not invested in everyone believing that. I just know that when I believe that I'm a kinder, softer, more hopeful person and maybe that's what spirituality is about, maybe that's what spirituality is is helping us find a way to move through this really complex and scary world with hope, with joy, with generosity towards others.
Speaker 2:My brother recently. I'm close with my siblings, even though their journeys are like, so different than mine. And my sister's the best. Every time she comes to visit because I have black Madonna's all over my face she's always like everywhere I go, I just see graven images. I just think ever. I'm like oh, that's such a like throwback. We're in graven, you know. But I'm still close with both my siblings and both of them say like you know, you're so different, you're so different now.
Speaker 2:Now, when we disagree, you speak your truth and I don't feel like there's something wrong with me. You're speaking your truth Like you're not. You know, I don't feel like you're judging me. I don't feel like I have to be on your team or else you're not gonna. And I used to be more like that because I was raised by White Mill God. I was like well, if you don't agree with me, then you're banished. Wow, because that's how I was treated. That's what spiritual leadership was. It was being in charge of other people's path. Yes, wow, it was rebuking. I mean, spiritual leadership's favorite tool is the rebuke. It's so true. Oh, my gosh, I hadn't even thought about that. Correction. It's correction. It's correction, you know. And now I don't even.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I first encountered the Black Madonna. I was really drawn to the like motherhood side of her and I think that's because I was so abused by Father God that I just needed something else. And in my book I tell some of the story about how White Mill God shows up in my dad, and so part of that too was I just like needed a whole different parenting relationship. But more recently and I love the Black Madonna as mother and there's like so much that you can do with that but more recently I've been like okay, but now I actually want to move into a consensual relationship where you're my teacher too and bring on the correction, bring on the guidance, bring on the hey, christina, you know that's done.
Speaker 2:After we already have a secure attachment. I know that you love me, I know that you're here for me, I know that you accept me, no matter what. Wow, and I feel like I'm being invited into this more. I mean hierarchical, but not in a consensual way where it's like no, like you're my elder, you're older than your wiser, and I have full autonomy here. And I'm concerned with this relationship where I'm asking you for guidance and I'm asking for feedback, even if they don't feel good all the time, you know, and to just even notice that, like my heart is longing for that, after I've like done them that, oh, she's my mommy, she's got me, she's protecting me, now it's like, okay, but what do you have to teach me? But I don't already know, like I'm not this, like fully self-actualized human being, and now I'm not in any. I mean, I dab, I'm in a few different spiritual communities but I'm not in it like I used to, where it's like you know I'm covering, I'm covering it all over there, so I don't have that structure and
Speaker 2:that's healthy, you know. I think it's good to be on our own for a while and to go out and get clear about boundaries. We all still need community, and we still need teachers and we still need elders and we still need all these things that white supremacy has stolen from the black community. Like you know, in a perfect world we'd be surrounded by amazing older black women who aren't bitter and aren't traumatized and aren't barely making ends meet, and so they actually have the spaciousness to make us a cup of tea and sit and listen to us and tell us stories about the olden days and what they experienced. But there's so few of that because of white supremacy.
Speaker 2:I have lots of neighbors who are like elders, like they're battling addiction or they're, you know, trying to retire but still working three jobs, because now they're taking care of their grandbabies too, and you know it's just complicated, right, and so they've never had therapy a day in their life, right? And so what comes out of their mouth is always the most life-giving, even though there's life inside of them. So I think we have to do that work of creating those communities, and I'm grateful for just an idea of that, you know, in a way.
Speaker 1:So Thank you so much for like coming on and like giving up your time, and I do have to say that you created that kind of a space for me. Even back then, in the beginning of all of this, like the space that you curated for just a few days was life-changing for me. So thank you very much. Oh, I'm so glad. Love or retreat that part I love or retreat you too? Yeah, all right. And I still got my little cup, my little CJR.
Speaker 2:Oh good, I still have mine too. Those are almost vintage. They're about to be vintage.
Speaker 1:I know you were very clear Do not put it in the microwave. I was like I still remember that from 2019.
Speaker 2:Oh, my good, I love that I have that voice. Every time you go to the microwave you're like mm-mm.