Healing From Religious Trauma

Have you ever felt the ground beneath your religious beliefs quiver and crack? Join me, Spencer Helms, alongside Darren Slade of the Global Center for Religious Research, as we venture into the heartache and complexity of religious trauma. Through our conversation, we shine a light on the psychological toll of departing from a faith-based community, discuss the nuances of toxic Christianity, and contemplate the evolving landscape of American evangelicalism. Our personal accounts intersect with broader discussions on the marginalization of black and queer identities, offering a raw, unfiltered look at the very real impacts of religious indoctrination and exclusion.

Navigating the murky waters of faith and politics can leave anyone gasping for air. In this episode, Darren and I dissect the tight weave of American Christianity with political ideologies, pondering the future of a religion at the brink of institutional collapse. We also provide a lifeline for those swimming through the aftermath of religious trauma, highlighting resources like Recovering from Religion. By widening one's literary horizon, we argue, one can foster resilience and growth in the wake of deconstructing fundamentalist beliefs. My journey from a tumultuous post-high school period to finding solace in religion, only to grapple with its darker sides, serves as a testament to the transformative power of self-enquiry and education.

The path to intellectual freedom is often strewn with obstacles, yet it’s a journey worth embarking upon. For those who have walked through the fire of religious trauma or wrestled with the shackles of cult-like environments, this episode is a guiding beacon. We wrap up our deep-dive with a discussion on essential readings that informed our transformative experiences and a spotlight on the certifications offered by Darren's organization, aiding anyone on the road to recovery. This is more than an exchange of ideas—it's a harbinger of healing, a call to rethink our spiritual journeys, and an invitation to reshape our understanding of religion's role in our lives.

Chapters

• 0:00 Religious Trauma
• 14:24 Dismantling Toxic Christianity
• 23:08 The Evolution of American Christianity
• 37:13 Religious Trauma and Healing Tips
• 44:37 Navigating Religious Trauma and Cults
• 52:33 Exploring Religious Books and Journals

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:33

What's up everybody? Welcome to this episode of life after 11. I'm your host to me, spencer Helms, and this week I am joined by Darren Slade. I will tell you a little bit more about Darren as we get into the end Interview, but I'm really excited to have him here. He runs. Let me start over, sorry. It's the global research center for global. What is the global religion?

Speaker 2: 0:58

for religious research?

Speaker 1: 0:59

Yeah, global Center for religious research. I mixed up the acronym. Okay, what's up everybody? What's everybody? Welcome back to this episode of life after 11?. I'm your host to me, spencer Helms, and this week I'm joined by Darren Slade of the global Center for religious research, and I am going to talk to him about one of the topics I love to nerd out about and a topic that I have a lot of familiarity with, and we're gonna talk about religious trauma today. Some of you know that, in light of the Michael Bickel I'm incident at I hop KC and the fact that I was on staff there for so many years, I have been very interested in cults and religious trauma, and so I love what Darren is doing out here in the streets, so I asked him to come on the podcast. So welcome, darren, I'm glad you're here.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Thanks for having me to me's appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 1:48

So tell us a little bit about who you are and and what made you start even the certificate program for religious trauma, and I appreciate you doing that, by the way well, you know what.

Speaker 2: 1:58

I kind of fell ass backwards into it. Honestly, by trade and profession, I'm an historian. I Really specialized in the socio-political development of religious beliefs and the philosophies and world views that go along with it, especially from the ancient world. And when you study religion for a living, you kind of come to learn that there isn't much left to study. Every rock has been turned over a thousand times and Then I ended up leaving my cult and I lost everything.

Speaker 2: 2:38

Lost wife, family, friends, my entire support system. And when I was going through so much trauma surrounding it and was receiving the retaliation from having left my cult, I Was told by a colleague have you ever heard or looked up religious trauma? And at the time they had said religious trauma syndrome, which in our certification program and stuff that we prefer not to say the word syndrome in all of this. But that got me going. I didn't realize this was a thing. And to learn that it was in its infancy, that nobody was really studying it. For academics like me and, of course, for victims like me. We we jumped on it. We needed to know anything and everything we could, and so from there kind of snowballed and we ended up becoming the largest institute in the world to study religious trauma.

Speaker 1: 3:40

It's so incredible the resources that I found. I mean, obviously, all you have to do is Google and you all pop right up my like. I was telling you earlier my my introduction to religious trauma Happened in 2013, 2014. I actually had left the cult I was in I hop KC. I'm not sure if you've heard of that place, but right now, the founder of I have KC is embroiled in a bunch of scandal right now of clergy sexual abuse, and it was so funny because I left almost 10 years ago and never brought myself to calling it a cult Because there was no sex stuff.

Speaker 1: 4:17

I was like it seems like a couple, there's no weird sex stuff. And then it starts to come out that, like, actually there was a lot of weird sex stuff. So when I was in 2013, 2014, the main reason I left was because of my experiences around Trayvon Martin's murder and the Ways that they were talking about that and the disconnect that was happening for me with my own sense of Identity in terms of being a black person in this country and and kind of feeling like I was being made to follow Something of like a white Jesus that we see kind of show up in that Christian nationalist movement. And my therapist I told her. I said you know, every time I'm in church I'm getting hives, I'm itching, I'm having panic attacks.

Speaker 1: 5:01

I can't sit still I'm sweating, I don't know what's going on. And and my therapist back then said two things to me that maybe because of the fact that, like you know, in these religious places and I'd love to have you talk about this you develop neuro pathways, and so she was saying to me that you know, sometimes, when those pathways have been created in our minds, maybe the divine or the universe is speaking through your body to kind of warn you and protect you because you can't, you've got to wait For your brain to create new pathways, right, and she she was like you know, there's a new study, there's new studies coming out about this thing religious trauma syndrome. Have you ever heard of it? Because I think that's what's going on for you. So I feel like I've kind of had this journey with it as a topic and as kind of a Category to place my experience. But I would love for folks who have never heard of it to kind of get an idea from you what. What is religious trauma?

Speaker 2: 6:00

Yeah, the ultimate question is, Basically it is trauma and that has its own definition. It's own clinical definition. We can explore that, but it's basically trauma, but trauma that occurs within the context of Religious or a faith-based system of belief. So and kind of what you were alluding to. It doesn't have to be major sexual exploitation and and or anything like that. It can actually be caused by very small things as well, like doctrinal beliefs that really, aralisa, really adversely affect people. So, for instance, belief in the rapture For a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 6:50

We have known people who have developed a fear of heights and or just a constant fear of things like masturbating, because they're terrified that at some point Jesus is going to return and catch you or something.

Speaker 2: 7:03

So the way we define it and this is now kind of the standard definition that's been recognized by a lot of clinicians that religious trauma results from an event, a series of events, relationships or circumstances that are connected to religious beliefs, practices or religious structures. That is experienced by the individual as not just overwhelming but is also disruptive to their central nervous system and that causes lasting Adverse effects on them. And it could. The adverse effects could be like in your case, the physical effects right, the high sweating, the pain, the panic attacks and or anxiety attacks on the mental and social and emotional levels, or adverse effects on somebody's spiritual life as well. Constant fear, and those are actually some of the top. Those are actually some of the top traits, symptoms of somebody who is suffering from religious trauma, or is the Anxiety, fear, shame, guilt. Now would you start, though, with your, because I'm fascinated by this.

Speaker 1: 8:27

I'm sorry, darren, hold on one second, babe, I'm recording, I got it. You can't call me. Good, I'll edit it out.

Speaker 2: 8:36

Okay, close your question. So would you say, with your sweating and the hines and stuff, do you think that those were anxiety attacks?

Speaker 1: 8:44

Happening. You know it's hard to it was so weird, the, the experience I had of it and I can say the two times where the hives and the sweating happened. One was I was doing everything I could to stay sort of involved in that movement right. So you know I hop KC is kind of the mothership of the global prayer movement, though they won't claim that right. And so there was another sort of iteration of the house of prayer In Atlanta, georgia. So when I moved away from Kansas City I moved to Atlanta and kind of involved with I hop Atlanta and I was sitting in the message. One day the director was speaking and comes on stage and Begins to talk about Kind of what God is doing now in this hour, and it was so far fret, far fetched and left field that it just was like I had this thought, like this man is preaching his journal to us as though it's like biblical truth, like he's crying.

Speaker 1: 9:49

And then I just felt this immediate feeling of like distrust or like clarity, like this person is not. Why do I believe this person? As soon as I I said that, I had this Breath of like kind of lose my breath and I start itching and shaking right and so I have to actually leave the sanctuary. I couldn't, I couldn't stay. I thought maybe something weird was happening. And then it happened a second time.

Speaker 1: 10:17

There was a it was kind of a group of people who were influenced by the house of prayer, asked me to come and speak at a conference and Walking up to the door it happened again and I actually had to call and cancel. I could not go through with speaking and I just felt at that moment it was more. It was more than just I don't believe this anymore. It felt violent and poisonous to me.

Speaker 1: 10:47

Some of the theology that I was being asked to Share and speak about and endorse and I didn't I mean, obviously I didn't believe it, but I thought maybe I could get away with was sharing about it because I'm familiar with it, right, yeah, and so after that happened that's actually when I reached out to a therapist is I really thought something was wrong with me, but that's that's kind of what happened. Other than that, it would just be the you know, a sense of like discomfort, a Sense of panic when you hear certain words or phrases or songs. I had physical manifestations in my body of discomfort and trauma and when it came to that particular way of viewing religion and God and that type of stuff, so that's what was happening for me.

Speaker 2: 11:31

I mean it honest to goodness, it does sound like almost textbook panic attack and and I know that there's layers and more to it than just that. So I mean I'm curious real quick. Yeah, the IHOP movement or the IHOP Paraminastry churches are kind of within that charismatic tradition. Yes, right, what stopped you from interpreting this as just a demonic attack and that you saw that, and why didn't you just seek out an exorcism?

Speaker 1: 12:57

Mm-hmm, that is a great question. I did it first. I did at first think I'm this is demonic, because that's you know. It's so interesting how I Realize now that any type of dissonance I felt was always labeled conviction, right from the Holy Spirit. So my intuition I would, I was almost taught against my own intuition, right, and I basically outsourced my intuition and I abdicated all of my agency to these people who had a clear picture of scripture, had a better relationship with God, who had done all these marvelous things, and so any type of dissonance or Disagreement that I felt was always Labeled bitterness or, like your, your heart is offended with God. And then, after a while, I just started policing myself. So any any resistance or anything that just seemed off or seemed like a hard pill to swallow. I thought, oh, that's demonic and I've got to work through that, need to fast more, I need to spend more time in prayer because I'm resisting this and that means I'm resisting God. So I used to call it demonic until I mean honestly I say this in 2012 when Trayvon was murdered, because For the first time, it was like this group of people say they hear from God, they're best friends with God.

Speaker 1: 14:25

The founder has, you know, gone up to heaven and gotten in chariots and been called an apostle, and so, from me, my heart was broken over what was happening to black men in our country.

Speaker 1: 14:36

And so to be in a place that claim to be able to hear from God so clearly and none of them God isn't talking to any of you about this, because I can't sleep at night over this is bothers me.

Speaker 1: 14:49

This could have been my brother, and so that was the first time where I felt permission to begin to disagree, because it seemed like there was that, there was a way that they had characterized Barack Obama, and then there was the like frenzy over Donald Trump. They kind of showed me like, oh, this isn't God, this is not. This is like some sort of whiteness, religious political Stuff that's been infused into what I've been taught about God, and so that gave me the permission to be able. I'm not gonna I'm actually not gonna squelch my intuition anymore, and I'm actually not going to ignore common sense anymore, because you guys are Missing a whole swath of humanity in the ways that you conceptualize God, like you're not even thinking about what life is like for people who don't look or experience the world like you do, so it's very free. Like you can't have universal global truth, you don't even know about Trayvon Martin.

Speaker 2: 15:53

You know, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised that you're in that initially You're, you're having this value conflict inside of you. On the one hand, is this demonic, it might just be an attack, or, and also my intuition here is starting to Peek out and is giving voice again. You know there was a study done of all of the best-selling Christian self-help books. Yeah, number one Sided reason for things like depression was demonic influence and demonic possession, and that is so.

Speaker 2: 16:39

Of course, there's this long tradition of not Actually paying attention to your body, your brain, your nervous and instead is telling you it's an outside oppressor. And and that's what leads me to kind of the other thing that I'm very Interested about with you, which I believe is what helped break you free of this. Oftentimes, cults will train you to do what we call thought stopping behavior or thought stop. Messages to yourself were basically, if you start to have doubts, skeptical, or your question things or something just doesn't feel right, we get conditioned to stop it. We say in mantras, in our head you know not today, satan, or get behind Satan got it good, you know, we just start repeating things and what it's designed to do is to Squelch any type of your own body trying to communicate with you. Interesting that that was in. I mean, maybe it was happening a little bit, but it didn't win the day. Loud your voice to come out, so I think.

Speaker 1: 17:57

Yeah, I think I think you know, I think it was in the for the first time saying no, I am actually a queer black person and that matters, and bringing that to the forefront, whereas before it was like one identity was Dmonic right.

Speaker 1: 18:18

Being queer was like you're gonna go to hell, and being black was kind of like we're colorblind, we don't see color right. So I think it was in kind of what was happening in the world, it was affecting those identities for me, and so the fact that the religion I was given or the truth I was given couldn't speak to either one of those things and the ways that it was speaking to those things was so unfruitful or negative in my life that it kind of I think I was saved by returning to some of these identities that I was told to forget or rebuke or throw off right, and so that feels to me like such an important part of even the deconstruction process for me. I think that the decolonization process is just as important, and so I think that a lot of the toxicity that shows up in religion I'm talking across the board has to do with people abdicating who they actually are and their identity. Well, I mean, what are your thoughts about that. What have you seen?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Well, yeah, absolutely, that's almost cult 101, right, you want to eliminate individuality and autonomy for people. They shouldn't have free thought, free beliefs free. They shouldn't be free in their emotions and certainly not their beliefs. You want to have their identity completely assumed and assimilated into the cult leader's identity or the group's identity.

Speaker 2: 20:03

So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right to have recognized that in the long history, christianity and then Christianity here in America, you're seeing a very Eurocentric, white, diluted and even you can probably go so far to say a colonialized version of this and the belief system. Places like Kansas City, yes, I imagine maybe colonial is its ancestry, but you're definitely talking rooted in a culture, war, religious right movement which is really I mean, it's actually quite new In the long scheme of 2000 years of history in our country. The fundamentalist religious right movement which gave birth to a lot of this stuff like IHOP, is actually it's kind of an aberration in church three, but it's fairly recent and it's fairly new, and so I would say that you're probably seeing more of a politicized version, not just a colonial version, right, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me and I know that you've done a ton of study.

Speaker 1: 21:35

So when you think about American Christianity, right, like how would you? I guess I wanna ask this question in a way that answers the most questions. When you think about Christianity in America, do you see threads that are loose, that could possibly cause a thing to unravel? Just I'm talking about American Christianity, not just evangelicalism, I'm talking the main line. Do you see elements of the ways that Christianity is conceptualized just here from an American perspective that have detrimental sort of holes or cracks in it in the foundation?

Speaker 2: 22:17

That's a great question. Well, you know, what's interesting is, we, as Americans, have done such a great job of marketing our version of Christianity around the world, so it isn't exactly isolated to us anymore.

Speaker 1: 22:35

Oh wow, you're right.

Speaker 2: 22:38

Especially so. Americanized Christianity is in fact, a global phenomenon now and it has really taken root and is very exploitative in Africa, where people are desperate for a type of Christianity that gives this hint of prosperity, of individualism pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. The John Wayne kind of version of Christianity, which is very much downplays and ignores Jesus' teachings from the Sermon on the Mount that the poor shall inherit the earth and that blessed the peacemakers, right To a very militarized warrior and, of course, staunchly Republicanized conservative version and even Republicanized Trumpian Christianity now. So, yes, I do see loose threads on institutional wise. We're actually seeing this across the board. So not just evangelical Christianity, but across the board. And here's what I mean.

Speaker 2: 24:02

I was part of a major study a few years back that looked at the number of worship centers and churches and congregations versus the number of Christians, and what we found is that the number of worship centers so that could be a church or whatever right Was outpacing the number of actual Christians by birth and by conversion, meaning churches were splitting and breaking up faster than they were getting converts. Wow, and that means and this is again across the board and we can show this through data that the pews are just empty. With the exception of some major mega churches, most churches in the US and around the world are empty. They're not filling the seats and they're getting emptier. And one of the reasons they're getting emptier is because the churches are fighting. The Christians are fighting amongst each other and then splitting up. So you'll get the Baptist church over here, and then first Baptist of the Holy Rock over there, and then this is the second Baptist church and the third, and all in the same city, the loose thread being that what we likely are going to see within this century so by 2100 estimated is that institutionalized versions of Christianity is likely to collapse on itself because it can't support. There are not enough Christians to pay for the overhead costs of all those congregations and churches.

Speaker 2: 25:53

So what we will see is likely a retreat out of the institutionalized form of Christianity into a more personalized house church kind of format which has the potential of going one of two ways.

Speaker 2: 26:13

Maybe both One people really start to reclaim a more spiritualized and outward focused, community focused type of church where they actually want to help the poor and do something worthwhile.

Speaker 2: 26:29

Or we will also see maybe an explosion, like in the case of IHOP, of cultish type of stuff where suddenly the leader of this house church is now an apostle and is riding around in church, right the other thread.

Speaker 2: 26:50

I will tell you that none of us were expecting and now it has become so evident to so many that it's just, it's amazing the speed at that, how this developed and that is the Trumpian version, the cult of personality surrounding Trump and that having the Christian flavor to it. I think what all of that's going to do and I hope we can see this for what it is while it's happening, not be looking back in the history books of how the world killed itself, but I, for a lot of people, it completely showed the true color of people who are claiming to be Christian in this country and showed that those southern churches a lot of them, or the deeply conservative ones, really had politics on their mind, had ideologies and agendas on their minds and were one step away from just turning into a cult, a bad cult. Then they actually were preaching anything close to Jesus.

Speaker 1: 28:13

I'm wondering about that and I've been trying to think about. I was on a panel recently and someone was asking me about cults and everything and I said you know what it's hard for me not to even just think of evangelicalism in and of itself as a cult. What are your thoughts about that? Do you think that's too grandiose a statement?

Speaker 2: 28:35

Well let's make a distinction. In academia, we always try to get as nuanced as we can right. So there is what we might call classical evangelicalism, and then there is what we might call neo-evangelicalism.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Okay, help us understand what that is so classical evangelicalism really focused on faith and it was politically neutral. This is something that Jimmy Carr yeah, that's a great example. Yes, and even before that. So it wasn't that they didn't have a political persuasion, it was just. It wasn't dictated and it wasn't aligned with your identity. So you could be a Democrat, you could be a Republican, you could be just a political, and it was okay.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Because the three main focuses of classic evangelicalism was the atoning death of Christ, that salvation is by grace and faith, and that the Bible was your main source of authority for all things spirituality, all things, religion and that was what they were interested in.

Speaker 2: 29:49

They wanted to be saved and they wanted to follow God while they were on earth. That did result in some break-offs, some offshoots, like the fundamentalist movement in the early 20th century, and what's interesting is we think of fundamentalists as being the political activists nowadays, and that's actually not true. They were isolationists. They didn't want any part of politics, no part of society, because it was sinful. What we find happening is, at the rise of the religious right at the late 70s and into the 80s, and then the Ronald Reagan era, we have fundamentalism, which this very obstinate, dogmatic it's. I'm right, everybody else is wrong and you'll never change my mind. So this really stubborn, dogmatic form of Christianity, mixing with a new wave of political conservatism that recognized it, could use identity politics to divide the country, and this is way more of a complex answer than you were looking for.

Speaker 1: 31:16

No I love it.

Speaker 2: 31:17

It's important to understand the historical context here, because what we see around this time, around the rise of the religious right and stuff is also a major change in American politics. And this is important because the switch with the Democratic Party going from being predominantly in the South to the Republican Party taking up the South and this is in wake of the civil rights movement that basically we recognized or I should say we the politicians especially, but in particular people on what are now the Republican Party had recognized they could use race and racism to help divide. And so what ended up happening? A lot of the Christian fundamentalists, who were white Southerners, matched on to the political agendas of the new conservative, the new Republican movement happening and they both co-opted each other, they both liked each other because it was expedient to do so. So the Republican said I can, I'll push for things like no abortion, no same sex marriage, if you will come on board for getting tax breaks to the rich and getting rid of welfare systems, okay.

Speaker 2: 32:49

It is that molding together that we see a brand new breed of evangelical, what I might call the neo evangelical, and that is the dogmatic obstinacy, somebody who will absolutely not change their mind, but more than that, will refuse to ever cooperate with any opposing viewpoint inside. Mix that with political activism, so they're fundamentalists who are politically active and in a really gross kind of way. So that I think is culty. They're not allowed to have freedom of thought, they're not allowed to have freedom of speech and they do isolate into their little silos, fox news kind of silos.

Speaker 1: 33:50

Yeah, it makes so much. Oh, that is so helpful, darren, seriously, and we might even do a two-parter and have you back because you just are. So your ability to kind of break it down for us is so helpful. I'm wondering because I think about this now.

Speaker 1: 34:09

Obviously I'm bringing my queer black self to the table and thinking about how I see this sort of merging taking place around the Carter Nixon years Like.

Speaker 1: 34:21

That's when it first, like becomes very clear for me of like you see, you know this sort of Jimmy Carter character who's talking about being born again and about faith, but is pro-life, I mean pro-choice, who is very nuanced and generous in terms of the ways that he thinks. And then you have this sort of Nixon character coming in talking about law and order and super predators and these things that do feel very political, and you see sort of the you know far wells and those backing this president. And he said I remember there's a interesting thing he did one time where he said something like you know, you can't endorse me, but I can endorse you, or something like that, and that to me feels like the beginnings of what has caused and wreaked so much havoc, I think, on people like me. I think that definitely the evangelicalism that I was kind of pulled into was of that variety. Do you feel like the classical evangelical even exists?

Speaker 2: 35:28

anymore it does, and they would be the ones who probably speak out the most against their fellow Christians who endorse people like Trump, who is the most religious and un-Christian Christian politician. So, yes, but they have been silenced on a number of ways, so they're just not, as they missed the boat in being politically active, so their power and their influence in society has diminished significantly. And, unfortunately, the culty version, the neo-evangelical Trump type cult, has done such a great job of making people's Christian identity synonymous with supporting Trump or supporting the Republican party that the moderate or classical evangelical congregations don't survive. When the preacher gets up there and says Jesus is our leader, not Trump, not the president, not a political party, it is going to cause the same cognitive dissonance and maybe even those anxiety attacks like you. But for people who have bought into this, no, in order to be a good, god-fearing, jesus-loving Christian, I also have to be a Republican. That's gonna cause some problems for them. So they exist, they're dying.

Speaker 2: 37:13

Here's the thing. And you had mentioned Nixon, so you know Nixon came before Jimmy Carter and he, and prior to this religion, wasn't on the docket right. Most Christian, most American.

Speaker 1: 37:30

Not Nixon Reagan, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 37:32

Yeah, but it's important. But this is important because you know we see this all the time. We see political opportunism all the time. That's politics and it's gross, but it's also part and parcel of the game. Back in the day most Americans believed religion was a private matter and the government should have no influence or say, and they definitely didn't want a religious politician. So Jimmy Carter was part of the religious rights rise to influence. They helped Jimmy Carter get elected.

Speaker 1: 38:22

Oh, wow, I didn't know that okay.

Speaker 2: 38:23

Yeah, he was, you know, a bona fide Southern Baptist. He just took a hard line stance on things like abortion and stuff because for him, being a Baptist actually a good Baptist he believed that churches should be autonomous and that people's ethics and morals should not be legislated by the government. So that was not okay for them. So that's when the religious right became the religious right and switched sides and said we're gonna endorse Reagan now. But yeah, you're right, it's at this point, suddenly, religion is being exploited and it is elevated to the point that the opportunists, the political opportunists, are able to capitalize on it. Stoke those flames, wow.

Speaker 1: 39:21

so I know that you again, I consider myself a nerd, but I'm looking at your bookshelf. I've been in your courses, so you're way more nerdy than me. What problem are you trying to solve these days? What are you? What problem are you trying to solve these days?

Speaker 2: 39:40

Well, I got a nerd problem. I have a proton pack, I do cosplay, and so my ghost-pushed proton pack is coming along beautifully well, but there is a couple of slime canisters that I'm having trouble figuring out. So that's the nerd problem I'm trying to figure out. That's awesome. No, you know what we are really looking towards. How can we bring more exposure to religious trauma? So I want to host in-person conferences and virtual conferences. I think people would benefit a lot. So I was trying to work out we're trying to work out all of the logistics of doing an in-person conference, so hopefully in the next year or so that problem will be solved.

Speaker 1: 40:35

That's amazing. I'm wanting to kind of turn towards, if there are people listening right Like I still have some folks who are one foot in, one foot out, not sure how to leave, because I think that they feel there's so much history in their faith tradition, so much of their identity I mean people named kids, picked addresses, bought houses, picked jobs, picked cities, I mean all kinds of things are wrapped up in the sort of identity they've created and crafted in a religion that is no longer serving them or making sense to them. What would be some of the ways that a person could walk this out intact and stay intact, relatively speaking? I mean, I think you do just kind of unravel, but what are some best practices in the midst of this process of recognizing religious trauma and beginning to heal from it?

Speaker 2: 41:31

Hmm, there are so many things. I first recommend getting a support group, getting into support groups. There are organizations out there like. Recovering from Religion is an organization that is really beneficial and helpful to me. But even if you don't want to do something, that's kind of a professional organized support group. There are a lot of people going through the exact same thing and, with social media and stuff, it shouldn't be too hard to track it down, and so the important thing is to know that you don't have to walk that journey on your own. There are people and resources If you want to keep some spirituality intact, while maybe jettisoning the particular congregation or the religion that you're a part of, or if you just want to know what you actually believe.

Speaker 2: 42:34

I always, always encourage people, read, successful people read, and read as much as you can, as often as you can, and don't just read the stuff that aligns with what you believe. See, if you can't track down actual good work by people who you might initially disagree with, you wouldn't believe what it does to your brain, those neural pathways and to your nervous system to slow things down and say I'm going to enrich myself.

Speaker 1: 43:21

Man, this is so helpful. I definitely want to have you back. I think that I just know your brain has so many different corridors that I would love to explore, and I'm just like we don't have time Because, I mean, I've just learned so much from you in a short amount of time and really do appreciate your commitment to this. I think in the days to come, years to come, there will be more and more people who are recognizing this in themselves and trying to find a path forward. Before I ask you the final two questions we've got about 10 minutes what is your story of leaving your cult? I'd love to hear that story, and then I'll ask you my final question.

Speaker 2: 44:03

Sure, I was definitely a fundamentalist when I first converted. I would say religion saved my life. I did because I was in a really bad place after high school and I didn't consider myself a very good person. So religion at first did teach me to want to be a better person, to want to love and support and help others.

Speaker 2: 44:37

But one of my biggest things I've always been an intellectual. I've always loved learning and I started reading books, I started consuming knowledge and I went to seminary. I wanted to be a pastor and I wanted to be a theologian and blah, blah, blah. But what I was getting in seminary and what I was getting in grad school was not sufficient. I just could not stop learning and what I had learned about was some of these cognitive biases. For some reason I just started.

Speaker 2: 45:18

I'm just consuming whatever I can in terms of academic scholarship and I learned about neuroscience. I learned about these cognitive biases and stuff, and one in particular is the confirmation bias, which is basically and this is something we all suffer from in every area of our life but basically we see in here only what we want to see in here that our brains automatically make a conclusion about our beliefs and then our brain filters out all of the information that doesn't align with what our brain automatically assumed is true, and we know that this takes place. And we also know ways to combat confirmation bias. And I was asking myself am I engaging in a confirmation bias with my own beliefs, my own Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist beliefs? And the short answer is yes, it was. But one of the ways you combat confirmation bias is you go read the counter side, and I was not prepared.

Speaker 2: 46:21

I was not aware of just what actual scholarship, not what seminary and theologians, but what actual scholars, the sociologists, psychologists, anthropologists, archaeologists, right, the actual historians, what we actually know about our religion and the history of our religion, and this and that. Anyway, for me it got to become a flood. It was so much counter evidence against my beliefs that intellectually I could not sustain it anymore. I laughed for intellectual reasons and was victimized, harassed, stalked, abused, severely Stalked, yes, and death threats, and this and that so severely for having left. And that's when the emotional part came in for me.

Speaker 1: 47:31

That's really. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's it's really. It's really real. I mean, I think anyone who has walked away knows something of what you're talking about. It is very lonely to be yourself sometimes and to be honest, and so I thank you for that and I thank you for kind of creating a pathway for us to recover ourselves and our brains. I really appreciate what you're doing and I'm going to ask you my questions. So every every episode, I ask people what they're bringing from the rubble of what's left. If there's anything left of faith for them or their faith tradition, then I ask, kind of, what you're binging so I don't know if it's Ghostbusters, Cosplay or not and then I ask you know, what are some words we can live by? And I'm definitely going to have you back because I'd like to dive more into some particular aspects of religious trauma but what are you bringing, what are you binging and what are some words to live by?

Speaker 2: 48:39

I alluded to it earlier. I take from the rubble a passion for wanting to make the world better. I learned that from religion and realized that it's a universal. It doesn't have to be from religion, so I want to make a positive impact on this planet. Binging, I just got done. The last night got done. Binging, escaping twin flames on oh God.

Speaker 1: 49:12

Which is finished it.

Speaker 2: 49:13

Okay, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I had no idea that that existed and I'm screaming at the TV the whole time. It's like you're on a zoom call with this guy, exactly. So, that's what I'm binging, and words to live by. You're not alone.

Speaker 1: 49:42

I love that. Oh man, I wish I would have known about Twin Flames, because we could have totally done it. My gosh, I was stunned by it.

Speaker 2: 49:58

And I'm somebody who empathizes with people who have been sucked in and indoctrinated and deculted, right, yes, and I'm just going how. How Are you sure? He selected you from a Zoom call and said this is you my gosh?

Speaker 1: 50:16

This is your twin and chased them down and stalked them.

Speaker 2: 50:21

Yeah, and you're in the wrong body, you're in the wrong gender, so go get it, yeah, so oh my gosh, that part.

Speaker 1: 50:28

That part was so. Actually, I learned a lot from that, because it made me realize that cults are universal. They don't have to be Christian. They don't have to be because what, jeff? And what's her name, her new name?

Speaker 2: 50:43

Shaler, Shaler, whatever.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Yeah, yeah, whatever the fact that they were forcing people to shift bodies and talking about the sort of binary energies and it was just kind of like this is all progressive language, this is all like sort of new age and it's still toxic.

Speaker 2: 51:03

Oh, cults are just as prevalent on the left side of the spectrum as they are on the right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 51:11

How do we avoid them? How do we avoid cults?

Speaker 2: 51:14

Read a goddamn book. That's too much.

Speaker 1: 51:20

Yes.

Speaker 2: 51:23

Yes, seriously, though, learning to be able to be skeptical and to critically think and to entertain more than just one source of authority, because we are just from our evolution as a species. We're prone to this. We want to be told what to do, so it is a concerted thing. I'm not saying education is the answer to everything, but in this case, it's a big part of avoiding the cult.

Speaker 1: 52:01

All right, top five books. I mean, you're so interesting, I can't wait to talk to you again. Top five books that you feel like were instrumental in your freedom.

Speaker 2: 52:11

Oh gosh, well, that's hard because I was reading. The things that were instrumental for me to break out of my cult were journal articles on cognitive science and stuff like that. So, ok, there is a book called God and Anatomy, and my favorite book of all time. Absolutely love it. You're going to get such a great breakdown of ancient religion and the history of Christianity in particular, but also Islam, and interviews them. The other one, by Litva, is Eesus Deus, which is the Latinized form of Jesus, jesus's name. That is also wonderful in terms of theology and history, the background, the Greco-Roman context of the Christian faith, and then a wonderful one if you're looking for something like counter apologetics, so one that kind of exposes some of the BS book called the Empty Tomb.

Speaker 1: 53:40

Wow.

Speaker 2: 53:42

And it's an anthology, so a number of scholars have contributed to this and that was eyeopening for me. So check out those three. I can think of two others.

Speaker 1: 53:54

Yeah, that's great, and you've got journals all over the internet, so tell folks where they can find you and read your stuff real quick before we go.

Speaker 2: 54:02

Yeah, probably the easiest is just at the Global Center for Religious Research, which is just gcrrorg, and you should be able to find my stuff there.

Speaker 1: 54:11

Awesome. Darren, thank you so much. I can't wait to have you back. Really appreciate you and thanks for teaching me. I'm certified now because of you in religious trauma, so thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you, Denise. Thank you for listening To pick your money and your heart is donate to Subquatcher Inc and clear the path for black students today.