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Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Healing and Hope Through Spiritual Growth w/ Tamice's Mom
How does a near-miss car accident transform your belief in God? Join Tamice Spencer-Helms and her mother, Lori Hasty, as they take you on an intimate journey through personal faith transformations and evolving family dynamics. Lori shares her profound shift from traditional Catholicism to a deeply personal relationship with God during a time of deep depression, where the Lord's Prayer became her beacon of hope and healing. This pivotal change significantly shaped Tamee's own spiritual path, revealing how faith can intertwine and strengthen familial bonds, even amidst challenges and resistance.
In the latter part of the episode, we highlight the nurturing and transformative environment of Mount Lebanon Church and the remarkable influence of Bishop Kim Brown. We'll recount our journey to discovering this inclusive community, how Bishop Brown's recognition and cultivation of our gifts have profoundly impacted our lives, and the resonance of the church’s values with our own. Through touching personal anecdotes, we underscore the importance of finding a faith community that truly feels like home, where personal growth, acceptance, and spiritual understanding flourish. Don't miss this heartfelt exploration of faith, family, and the quest for belonging.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
What's up everybody, welcome back to this episode of Life After 11. I'm your host, tamee Spencer-Helms, and this week y'all I am joined by the honorable, the one and only the maker of me, lori Hasty, my own mother. As y'all know, this is the 40th birthday anniversary special, so what I'm doing is interviewing people who play a significant role in my life, who shaped me spiritually. If you know and have read Faith Unleavened, then you know about the chapter that takes place in my mom's 1984 Audi, and so we are going to meet the woman herself, lori Hasty. Welcome to the show. Hi, mommy, hi, how are you? I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great, and so I think you know. People, obviously that have read the book know that you saw that, showed me that God was real, because I watched the ways that your life changed. Can you tell me a little bit about your own story leading up to the moment where you kind of gave yourself to God?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was raised pretty much. Well, I'll say that my family always went to church. I always remember church being in my life and I have loved God since I was a little girl for a very long time. But I would say that I was also raised in a very traditional Catholic parochial school and in Catholic parochial school there were a lot of rules and mores that I learned to follow. So I love God. I always wanted to please God. I've always had a prayer life.
Speaker 2:But as I grew older and later into my adulthood although I was practicing um Catholicism to some extent, but I actually actually I um went over and to be a Methodist after I got married. So I was active in the Methodist church. As you know, always had you all doing something and singing in the choir, doing something in the Methodist church. So, again, I've always loved God. But it wasn't until I began to experience an extremely deep depression I mean a really, really deep depression that I can now identify as probably a depression that would have taken me out. I believe that that that God spoke to me.
Speaker 2:And at that time, the most miraculous thing happened. The only scripture I really knew at that time, the only one that I had really memorized, was the Lord is my shepherd.
Speaker 2:I just repeated that over and over again, and I just repeated that over and over again. Let's make a long story short. I went to a conference that just quote happened to be in my area and you all you and your dad and your brothers have never been away from me. Just so happened that weekend you all were away. I went to the conference and I gave my life to Christ. Now, what that did for me was give me a more real relationship. It wasn't a service kind of prayer, confession, go to church relationship. It became a very personal relationship with Christ. So that's pretty much my story. Ever since then I feel like I've had a personal relationship. It's had ups and downs, but I believe that my relationship with God is a lot different and a lot more personable than it was when I was growing up.
Speaker 1:It does, mommy, great job. Just be you. It's great. And this is good for me too because it helps it. It adds so much. Now in my own life as I look back on on my own experiences with God. Kind of looking at what you were going through has been helpful to go Like I think I know God because you stayed around, because God kept you around. So I mean I think mine and my brother's and even my father's life wouldn't have been different if God would have been different, if God had not intervened in that place of sadness for you. So when you started to kind of grow in your relationship with God, where did you feel like you were meant to take your family? I know? For a while there we were all kind of like Mom, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:I mean.
Speaker 1:I remember you having my friends come in and pray, and I mean just, I mean all my pothead friends, all my brother's friends. I mean we had to come around the table and pray. What were you thinking at that time about what it meant to bring your family along?
Speaker 2:Hmm, you know what? I don't know that I was actually thinking that I had to bring my family around. I think that I was just so overjoyed and so astounded by what I was learning that I wanted you all to learn it too. You know I wanted to share it. I wanted to be quote the witness that they're talking about. You know, everybody's supposed to be a witness. So you know, I wanted to be this witness and I wanted to be the witness in my, in my own household.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny because you, you were, but we were real mad. Some stuff started changing.
Speaker 2:I was mad. I remember you all having to sit around the kitchen table and do these forced Bible studies that I would make you all do, so you know it was all in my learning, the Bible was opening up to me so richly and I was like, oh my goodness, my family needs to hear this too, you know. So that's where that was yeah.
Speaker 1:so let's talk about, let's talk about, um, the moment in the car. So I don't know if you remember this, but uh, for those you know, we, I wrote about it because it's really important me to to ground people in this understanding that I knew God before I met white Jesus and to make that very clear, because in a lot of ways, the rejection of any kind of knowing of God apart from white Jesus meant a rejection of my family, and not just that, but a rejection of the ways that God has shown up for me in my own sort of cultural context. And so I just want to know, kind of, what you were thinking. So you're in the car with me. We almost T-boned this car. Do you remember this story? Can you tell it from your perspective? The story of the bumper sticker?
Speaker 2:What I remember about that is that I was like Lord. What am I going to say to this child?
Speaker 2:That's what I remember, because you asked me Mom, how do I know that God is real? And I remember thinking, oh, oh, how would she know that God is real? And I said because I believe, because he has shown me he was real. And I believe that if you ask him he will show you. And it was just as much a surprise to me as it was to you to look in front of us and see that license plate that said God is real.
Speaker 2:So I mean it was like whoa, he really is real. So I think it just shows how much you love both of us for that moment in that way.
Speaker 1:Mm. Hmm, yeah, I say I mean I just think about that. That was powerful and I think there's there's such richness there as I'm thinking about and I'm writing. There's a whole chapter named after you in this new book and I think that like just paying homage to you and to our tradition. But I was thinking about it. So tell me what you noticed.
Speaker 1:I'd love to hear from your perspective what it was like for you to watch me go into white evangelicalism. Now it's all out, now that I have KC as a cult it's shut down, mike Bickle has been exposed, all the leadership has been exposed, and so that's not a secret. But I'd love to hear from your perspective what it was like for you from the day I came home and told you I was saved. Now, after we had spent all those years together talking about God and me hearing from God and being like mommy what does this mean? And to going to now I'm saved, now I know God, and it's about this white Jesus I met at this play I just went to. So can you tell me from your perspective, what was it like to watch me sort of go towards a more white evangelicalism in my faith?
Speaker 2:oh, my gosh right on time indeed indeed. I guess that's really what it was. I need to go to Jesus. Indeed, indeed. I guess that's really what it was. I need to know what it is Because let me see To me, you have always been a very precocious child and you have always had a mind of your own, which I have encouraged.
Speaker 2:Okay, Even to the point of sometimes I would say to myself oh Lord, I told her that, but I didn't really know that she was going to actually do it, you know. So I was concerned. I think is the word I was concerned, I think is the word I was concerned. I wasn't so much worried about the God part, because I've always believed that God will take care of us, but I was very concerned about the moving to the right, extreme right and moving away from what you have always known and what I consider to be trusted resources, okay, and so it was very hard for me.
Speaker 2:You're not worried about you. I didn't know what was going on. You know your views seem to be very extreme and changing from what I felt like your foundation was, and so it was difficult, and all in the context of knowing that you love God. So, I was worried about you. I didn't want you to be there. I wanted you to come home and come back and go to our church and be like a normal Christian, you know.
Speaker 2:But I also know and I'm holding my hands like this because I also know that God holds you as well. So it was very hard, but the only way, and the only way I really got through it was with the faith that God has hold holds you, asha, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, you mentioned something I'd love to talk about. Let's talk about our church. I think one thing that man you mentioned something earlier when we were talking. You said when you met God it was like. This is so astounding and exciting. I just want y'all to know, and I will never forget, that I started to come into contact with this this at the time. His name was Pastor Brown and he was the only person that I could hear talk about scripture in a way that made sense and that touched me deeply and kind of like you were talking about, like this sort of foundational resources. And Pastor Brown is now Bishop.
Speaker 1:Kim Brown goes by Bishop and to my dying day I will say that was the place that called out gifts in me. And to my dying day, I will say that was the place that called out gifts in me. I remember him saying to me one time you're an evangelist and you know it's very true. Now I think about with anything that I do, if I'm finding that it's life giving and that it's freeing, I'm not talking about it. And he called that out in me way back, way back before I met white Jesus.
Speaker 1:But the other thing that I love about Bishop um, it's just the way he does church. So tell us a little bit about Mount Lebanon, talk to us about Elder Brown and kind of what's happening there. I know there's been a um, a transition recently, which is even more exciting, but it speaks to um the fact that I will never say I never had a good example of um Christ-like leadership in my life that was grounded and connected to community and to the spirit. And now I mean I'll go into some of the conversations in a little bit, but tell us about Mount Lebanon, tell us about the Mount.
Speaker 2:You know, we got to the Mount because of you. You had heard Pastor Brown at that time, um, speaking, and we were going to another church, but I always wanted us to go to church together. So, you know, we started, we we had been to this particular church, um, we had been to Mount Lebanon every New Year's, cause we have friends who went there on New Year's Eve. So we had started going there on New Year's Eve, but you were the one who said oh, y'all have to come to this church on Sunday. This pastor is on fire. So we started to come and again, and what I loved about the Mount, and still love about the Mount, is that it it kind of exemplifies for me what Jesus is all about and what church should be. The model of the Mount is churches should change lives.
Speaker 2:And church is a model. We do change lives at the Mount, but even more than that, bishop now has a unique gift of seeing things that are there that you might not even recognize or see, and so I wanted to join the Mount mount, but he said wait for your husband to join. And so even that talks about how family and how he looks at family.
Speaker 2:So your dad one Sunday, you know, took my hand and we all went up like hasties and we joined the mount. The thing, uh, also about the Mount is I don't feel like Bishop and Elder are afraid to change.
Speaker 1:I feel like.
Speaker 2:I feel like we all love traditional church and what we were brought up in traditional church, but it gave us a foundation for change as well, and it speaks from the word. And now LJ, which is his son, is now the pastor and the word is spoken. It might not be spoken in the old ways, but it's spoken. Even the music is different, but the word is in the music. And to me that's extremely important, you know it goes through all of the generations.
Speaker 2:So that's what I like about the Mount. It's always been that way. Bishop respects the older people in church, as well as the younger people in church. You know there's a place there for everybody, and that's what I love about it. And I could go on and on. I don't feel judged at the mouth, that's for sure. You know, I have four kids, all with individual issues. And I don't feel judged or gossiped about you know, I just feel comfortable there, so it really is my home church.
Speaker 2:It's not perfect but it does change lives and I feel like our family fits well into that family of the Mount or at the Mount Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It does, and it's a perfect way, I think, for folks. So for those of you who are listening who are wondering okay, so what do I do? I've kind of I've walked away from toxic religion but don't know where I want to go. I think what my mom just said is a really helpful frame to go. Where does my family fit best? Where can we feel not judged? And I think it's okay to return to the places that we may have left, as long as all of us is allowed and as long as all of us feels welcome in that space. And I wanted to kind of narrow down on that because I remember the role that church and Bishop Brown has played has been life-changing for me on several fronts. So I remember when I went to IHOP, I came to Bishop and told him about it and he furrowed his eyebrow and was like all right, just keep in touch. You know I come back.
Speaker 1:And at this point I come back and I start going to the Mount Well regularly. I'm home, I'm married and I have a baby and a completely different life stage, and Bishop and I still connected and I think he knew what was going on with me and he had a way to speak to the deepest things on the inside of me. That caused me to like kind of see some things. And so I was there when I started subculture. I was there when I got a divorce. I was there. As you know, I healed in my process. And then I was there when I was outed and I want to talk about that a little bit before I ask you those questions. But I remember going to Bishop and finding out that he already knew I was queer, that I had been outed to him and I had been waiting to kind of talk to him about it. Because in a situation like that, when a person has a realization, it's a very small circle of people you feel safe to tell that with, because so many things about your relationships change. People ask questions about things from history and it's like a process that you want to be in control of. But my process I wasn't really in control of. So there was a lot of running around, finding who knew, trying to explain to people and it was a hard time.
Speaker 1:And I remember talking to Bishop and Bishop saying you know where I'm at, but I know you, love God. That was literally it. He didn't condemn me. He didn't judge me. He affirmed my love for God. My love for God, and I think that was the moment I needed to really feel like I am seen and known and I'm loved, because it had been a hard bout of conversations with people who were saying really horrible, horrific, hurtful things to me. So to have Bishop look at me gave me so much confidence and that's when I moved to Richmond.
Speaker 1:It was almost like I needed the closure because so much had been said over me, but something that never happens and I think you know I have a lot of people who are ex-evangelicals that listen. I have a lot of people who are progressives that listen. I have a lot of people who are like I don't know what I am. And then I have a lot of people who are still figuring out their own identities and I think it would be helpful for them to hear from you what that was like for you, my coming out process, and I think what I'd like for you to talk about is what God, in particular, said to you around that you around that it's your fault.
Speaker 2:You told me to think it's been difficult.
Speaker 1:Be as honest as possible. Don't hold back.
Speaker 2:It's been difficult, but I would say that a few years ago, when this whole, when you outed, as you say, I was at a whole different place than I am now, you know. Now, well, let me take this I've been praying and I, you know, I prayed when you first came out. I've been praying all the while and I'm still praying about it because, um, because it's hard. And you, what God, I believe, has said to me is that I don't have a heaven and I don't have a hell to put anybody in. You are their mother and all I want you to do is love them. And that's what I believe and that's what I am working toward doing Now.
Speaker 2:Earlier in the broadcast, I said when you first left, I felt like God was holding you in his hands. It hasn't changed. I still feel like God is holding you in his hands. It hasn't changed. I still feel like God is holding you in his hands and I love you, no matter what. So the way God talks to me is like and you know I said it all Christianity, he said, but what he said was listen, you don't have a heaven or hell to put that child in.
Speaker 2:So all I want, okay so you know what, what else, but that I'm holding her.
Speaker 2:I'm holding you, you're her mother, you know. And what can I? You know? What else is there to say? I'm not where I was two years ago. You know, I'm just growing and learning, and growing and learning, and growing and learning. And I'll say one more thing my scripture, even from the time I don't know when I was given this scripture, but I've always had it in my heart, and it's Psalm 24. The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof and all who live in it belong to him, and so that's the scripture that came to mind.
Speaker 2:The earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof and everything in it, and so he's the judge. He's the one, not me all I can do is love god, love my children and my family and keep it moving.
Speaker 1:I hope that answers the question it does, and I remember you telling me that you also felt a heart for the parents, right Like God asking you where are the mothers? Do you want to say more about that or not right now?
Speaker 2:To me feel like I'm a quiet leader. In a way I'm a quiet example, and I do sort of feel like I don't know how to put it in words I don't know, you may have to edit this because I do sort of feel like there are not enough mothers willing to stand up for not 100% perfect kids and I think perfect kids lightly, it's not just kids who are queer or gay, it's kids who have issues, it's kids who may have drug problems, it's kids who may be out on the street, it's kids who are carrying guns. I mean, I see negatives, but I would love to see more mothers who are rooted and rounded, rooted and grounded in God and out there really just loving the kids and so I don't know what that means for me.
Speaker 2:Yet, like I said, god has just given me kind of a glimmer or a glance of that, but I've learned with God. Glimmer and glances for me usually turn out to be something that I do, so that's how I feel about that.
Speaker 1:That's so good and so what I would love. I know that when I post this episode between me and my brother, jt, and my brother Reggie and my other sister, markeia, between us and all our communities and friends all of us can say we were mothered well, I mean extremely well. There's just nobody like you. We are so lucky to have had you. You, we are so lucky to have had you, and I think that there's so much that you offer to so many, not just directly in us but like through us, the ways, the things that you've taught us and the lessons.
Speaker 1:And I think about my brother and the ways how compassionate he is, and I think about my other brother and how soft-spoken and observant he is. And Markeia is just herself, you know, and I'm like we got that from you and from daddy and I'm really, really grateful for you. And as we like start to kind of like land the plane a little bit, I want to know, kind of, what you're chewing on these days, what. So when we do these episodes, we ask everybody, you know, what are you bringing from the rebel? What are you binging? So? Is there something that you've been?
Speaker 2:reading or watching or that's fascinating you right now, and then what are some words to live by? So, whenever you're ready and whatever, or feel free to answer those questions, um, let's see, I am really uh, I will call it kind of expanding what I what I read, um, I'm reading bishop's book, of course, on boiling our children, but I'm also getting very interested in the works of Christina Cleveland, who wrote God is a Black Woman, and also the book Too Heavy a Yoke. So I'm reading those. But in addition to that and it's kind of like maybe an awesome moral I'm also um reading and chewing on live long, finish strong by gloria copeland.
Speaker 2:So, um, you know, I've always done that, I've always been an avid reader, and so those are the things that I'm kind of chopping on now. And I would just say, as far as words to live by, my favorite scripture is Hebrews 35. Do not throw away your perfect confidence, for in it there's great reward. You have need to persevere, all right, so you will receive the reward after you have done what God has promised, after you have done his will for you. That's it.
Speaker 1:You're welcome everybody.
Speaker 2:Perseverance.
Speaker 1:Asha, you're incredible. I'm glad forever I have your DNA. I'm glad forever I have your DNA. And next week, after this one, I'm going to play an episode with Uncle Demi on it, talking about our ancestry and the story of our family. Yeah, it's time for people to meet my people. You know, nice, it's important for people to know who I am and the foundations that are responsible for me.
Speaker 2:Can I redo my scripture? Do it again? Yeah, Because I misspoke. He was 1035. Okay, and it is. Do not throw away your confidence, for in it there is great reward. You have need to persevere, for you will receive the rewards of God after you have done what he has asked you.
Speaker 1:I see, okay. Thank you, mommy, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:Love you too. Bye. You're welcome. Love you too. Bye. Thank you for listening to pick your money and your heart is donate to subcluture inc and clear the path for black students today.