Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
As a follow up to her debut book, Faith Unleavened: The Wilderness Between Trayvon Martin & George Floyd, Tamice Spencer-Helms is joined by folx from all walks of life and society to talk about picking up the shattered fragments of a faith we used to know. Life After Leaven is a podcast for those seeking to heal from the damage caused by toxic Christianity and rebuild something new and life giving in its place.
Life After Leaven w/ Tamice Spencer-Helms
Where Is The Lie Cast Reunion: Life After Evangelicalism w/ Robert & Tamara
Have you ever felt the weight of an entire belief system bearing down on you? Join us on "Life After 11" as we, Tamisa Spencer-Helms, Robert, and Tamara, reunite to share our deeply personal journey from the confines of evangelicalism to the liberating embrace of a more inclusive faith. We kick things off by catching up on our lives and careers, but quickly shift gears to reflect on the mental and emotional toll of our evangelical past. From the absurdities of purity culture to the ultimate liberation we experienced, Tamara's humorous yet poignant declaration of leaving ministry for good sets the tone for a candid conversation about our ongoing healing process.
As we navigate our post-evangelical faith journeys, we discuss how our understanding of spirituality has evolved. Influenced by Black church traditions and womanist theologians, our conversation sheds light on the joy of worship in affirming spaces and the shedding of white evangelical pressures. We unpack the resilience and genuine devotion that remains despite our disillusionment with past teachings, celebrating a mature, unwavering love for God that has only grown stronger through life's hardships.
Throughout the episode, we also explore the immense power of imagination and the importance of rest, creativity, and pleasure. Personal anecdotes bring to life the physical and emotional exhaustion we faced within evangelical spaces, and we reflect on the liberating feeling of leaving toxic environments. Highlighting the significance of enduring friendships and the beauty of life beyond evangelicalism, we conclude with a sense of gratitude and joy, celebrating the camaraderie we share. Join us for a thought-provoking and heartfelt discussion that underscores the resilience and beauty of life after evangelicalism.
Life After Leaven is sponsored by Sub:Culture Incorporated, a 501c3 committed to eradicating cultural, social, spiritual, financial, and academic barriers for Black College Students. If you are interested in giving a tax deductible donation toward our work with black college students, you can do that here. Thank you for helping us ensure temporary roadblocks don't become permanent dead ends for students with marginalized identities. You can follow us on Instagram: @subc_incorporated, Facebook: facebook.com/subcultureinco, and Twitter: @subcultureinco1.
Our episodes are written and produced by Tamice Namae Speaks LLC.
Don’t miss out on what Tamice has planned next! Follow her on Instagram and Twitter, or subscribe to her Patreon page.
All right, I promise I won't talk about it. All right, what's up everybody. Welcome to this episode of Life After 11. I'm your host, tamisa Spencer-Helms, and I'm joined by the original crew, the Where's the Lie crew, from years and years ago, because we're all old now, we've all moved on.
Speaker 2:I'm younger. Hey guys, for the record, I'm younger, Just wanted to put that out there.
Speaker 1:And everyone is back in the same fashion. It is so good to be with y'all. These are the homies I've known. I don't know how long we've known each other, at least what like 15 years, something like that. Anyway, we did ministry a while back together and somehow just can't get rid of each other, and I'm so happy to have y'all in my life. So welcome Robert and Tamara, the original co-hosts of Where's the Lie. Say hello and introduce yourselves. Where are you? How are you occupying space these days? Start with you, t.
Speaker 2:It's deep man. I didn't know it was going to start out the gate like that. No, I am in Florida, back home, born and raised in Florida. So I'm back home. I am pursuing my career in corporate America, unfortunately at the moment, but that is just the way I'm occupying space. Yeah that's all I got.
Speaker 1:Hello brother mom.
Speaker 3:Hey, hey, hey, hey. I enjoy y'all. I am a PhD student. Try my best to get through these academic streets and divest from white supremacy. I think how I'm occupying space these days is June. Jordan has this line where she says I am black alive and looking back at you. That's where I'm at these days. I don't know date.
Speaker 1:So you all are my favorite people to cut up with when it comes to the foolishness that is evangelicalism. I know that we all dipped our toe in at one point and we're even out here in these streets believing it at one point. So I think what would be cool. One of the things I want to do with this season in particular this season is obviously because I turned 40, I am basically making this whole season about me. All the things I love, all the people I love, all the topics I'm interested in, all the things I want to learn about, and so one of the things that was important to me was bring on people that I love to have conversations with, just in general, and so I want to talk a little bit about.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we're in a space right now a lot of people feel exiled. A lot of Black people exited evangelicalism between, probably, trayvon and Donald Trump. By the time George Floyd happened, most people were out. But I kind of want to talk a little bit about the experience of being Black in evangelicalism what that's like for us, what are the things that we have to work through, what are the things we have to quiet down, and what does it feel like now to be out of that. What have you recovered since you left? So I'll let either one of y'all go. What was it like to be in it? What's it like to be out?
Speaker 3:That's an emotional question, I think. What was it like to be in it? What's it like to be out? That's an emotional question, I think. What was it like to be in it? Y'all this will go left if I get too emotional, so I'm just going to keep centered it. I feel like it broke my. My mind, like my, not just like my mental health was low, it was broken, it was shattered, and so I felt like there were all of these rules that were both ambiguous and clear at the same time, right Like of of, of trying to walk this line to prove that you're a Christian, to prove that you're a holy, and I just there was something. My body doesn't operate that way, and so collapsing myself to fit into this box that wasn't designed for me was nonsense. I'll give a perfect example purity culture. I did not grow up like that and I didn't grow up in the church. I grew up as a.
Speaker 3:So people are like I kiss, date and goodbye. What is this nonsense? Or every man's battle where I would be in these groups where men were like I thought about a woman sexually. Today I'm thinking what the hell? I don't know if we can cuss on this podcast, so I'm not going to, most definitely, cuss on this podcast. Oh, okay, because I have a potty mouth. So, yeah, you do, yeah, I do. I was like what the fuck is this? I the things that people felt were sinful were none of the things that were concerns of mine. I was concerned with eating, I was concerned with, like, trying to. I was concerned with these things and people were like wow, what do you do when you think about women sexually? I'm like yeah.
Speaker 3:That's being in it, Then I think being yeah like being Getting.
Speaker 1:I don't repent anymore of that, well, well well.
Speaker 3:Well, listen, I think being out of it has been a slow process, right? Like removing yourself doesn't mean you remove the thought processes and all of the behavior that went into being in bondage, right. And so, for me, every year, I cannot believe how clear my mind is Like when I'm not concerned with all that bullshit. Like my mind is so clear. It's silence up here. I can, yeah, so let me go there.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, tamar, I'm going to ask you, tamar, you know it's funny because of you know exiting ministry and you know working through that process of exiting ministry thinking like, oh my gosh, this is what I'm going to be doing for the rest of my life, to never again. I don't care who comes to me, I don't care who talked to me. Never again.
Speaker 3:Not even Jesus on the white horse child.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you I was like look, you're going to have to do something. A miracle, not even Jesus with the garment stained red. I hate you, I hate you so much Coming up, go ahead. I can't talk to you um coming up, go ahead. Um, I think I think for me coming out of that swirl and you know, hitting, you know my context is corporate america right now, do you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean, like I, everything I do is about image and you have to look a certain way. You have to look a certain way, you have to sound a certain way, you have to be political, you have to be, you know, diplomatic and all this different stuff. And I realized I'd never been that my entire life. And so the box that I was, you know, trying to be in, like Robert said, when I was in evangelicalism, never worked. I was always called the rebellious one. I could never, ever fit. I was always called the rebellious one, even when I wasn't being rebellious, I was rebellious. And so I think I've come to the conclusion of I am who I am. I accept who I am. I will always question asinine beliefs, I will always push back against these thoughts of you have to be this way, because I don't see it in the Bible, you know, funny enough.
Speaker 2:So I grew up in the church I'm talking about missionary Baptist, you know singing in the choir, the deacons leading worship, all this different stuff. I actually went back to a lot of that All of a sudden, the stuff that I threw away because the Black church wasn't enough Right. And then I realized I was like, why have I always believed that my people weren't enough. And that was where I got confronted with the white evangelicalism in me, where I never believed that my people were enough or we were subpar in our understanding of who God is. We're subpar in our theology and so I actually.
Speaker 2:When I came out of ministry and white evangelicalism, I went back to my good old roots of being missionary Baptist, with a church fan and the air condition not working. You know what I mean. That's what I went back to the scriptures that I was raised in, the memorization, the stuff and the viewpoint of Black people on certain scriptures that I grew up in. Do you know what I mean? And so that's actually where I went and that's where I found my peace, and it was back in the cradle. It was back in the cradle of Africa, like it really was. It was that idea, you know it's. You know because I remember growing up and it's funny, but growing up in church they had the white Jesus in the front and the black Jesus with dreads in the back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:It was interesting and I always remember thinking but the black Jesus with the dreads makes more sense than the white I don't know what that was Jesus looked like. You blow him and he falls over Jesus, and I remember wrestling with that as a child and then I went right back to that Russell from childhood and grappling with all that stuff and so I think, coming out of white evangelicalism, I honestly just found the purity of the gospel.
Speaker 3:Yeah, to me I'm so curious for you. Like you know, at a former iteration of your life you were really concerned with being a friend of Jesus, right Like being like that ever since I've known you, that was like the banner.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Like that was like and it was. You know, I was talking to somebody about this recently, using you as an example, like you're one of the most devoted people that I've known in my life, and so there was this constant like I got to be Jesus's friend and what I feel in you these years is like it feels like you realize, oh, Jesus has always been my friend now, so what do you think? Where are you at with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm ex-evangelical. I'm out here, I think, wearing a light jacket of Christianity. I think that the idea of coming back to the cradle I love that, Tamara, because I feel like the only ways that I'm coming near Jesus these days are at the guidance of womenists, Black church, womenist theologians. Those are the only people that will bring me within any kind of proximity to anything called Christian at this point. Because, you're right, I was so deeply formed by white evangelicalism and then my overachieving ass and my desire to please. It was just a really bad like kind of combination. So for me to feel for the first time like I don't even care, I mean to get to a point where it's like I don't care if God sends me to hell, I don't care what y'all think Like those things are very new for me. And in the midst of that, realizing, yes, that like Jesus has been with me, like me and Jesus are friends, We've been friends, and that feels really beautiful, to feel like I don't have to like name it in a way, but at the same time feeling like there is this way that scripture still shows up for me. It's still kind of like frames things that happened for me in my life, Like I was thinking, the other day I was at Pride in the Pews.
Speaker 1:It was in Atlanta and it was a. It was basically it's a nonprofit dedicated to helping black churches go on the journey to becoming affirming and I was there. They were singing total praise. I mean they were doing Fred Hamlin. They were singing total praise. I mean they were doing Fred Hamlin Like it was.
Speaker 1:It was the first time I've been, like, yeah, in church, like pacing up and down the hall and like screaming and worshiping with my body, um, for the first time, and it was. It was a sister's chapel, so it wasn't necessarily a church, but it was like if I'm coming near Christianity, it will only be through this door and it felt really good to feel like there was a part of sort of like you're saying, Tamar, this Black church tradition that will always be my roots and that I can be OK with that and hold that without having to feel a pressure to explain it, um, explain it. Um. It's just been really beautiful to be able to hold and to think about, um, specifically the black church and what they created. I mean what they conjured over here in terms of how they made sense of Jesus and that kind of an experience in this country, and I'm like, yeah, who would part with that?
Speaker 3:Like I'm not parting with that and I'm like, yeah, who would part with that? Like I'm not parting with that Is that what you mean, Rob? Yeah, yeah, it is. You sound like our advisor, Dr Green. You sound exactly like you would say I could tell you've been dialoguing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think for me I've seen that piece come over you now and like like you were trying to struggle your whole life, like God, notice me, I'm your friend, I'm your friend and you're just real chill about it these days and for me I all of those former cares that white evangelicalism told me were the litmus test to loving God Child, those are gone by the wayside right now. I don't understand God these days actually at all. I'm going to be honest. But I love God more than I ever have and I truly mean that. Y'all asking me, y'all asked me some shit, I don't know. I mean I got opinions but like I'm in a whole PhD program, but I love God more now than I ever have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Some of it though too, I believe, for us is age. I think some of the just growing up out of that mess and like being in our 40s now and being like okay, whatever that was okay, and being like okay, but life is real, like just let that sink in right.
Speaker 1:So that's your evangelical self. Life is real.
Speaker 2:I repeat life's hard. Like I remember I was sitting one day, I was just talking to the lord and I was like, bro, life is hard, true. Like just just that. That was all my prayer. Like that I'm out like this, isn't it?
Speaker 3:funny that the people that were the hardest on us in those evangelical spaces, who preached the hardest, who told us we weren't living up, ain't? They lives a fucking mess now.
Speaker 1:A mess and I don't want to be petty. Somebody bring me a meal and my dad's in the popcorn.
Speaker 3:America's got a problem. Listen, a lot of those people who are telling us if you don't do this, you will not serve God in your 30s, you won't serve God and you won't survive. A lot of them. I'm going to just keep it hush. I'm going to keep it serious, Keep it safe.
Speaker 1:Can you look at me?
Speaker 3:now? Yeah, I still love God. How about that?
Speaker 2:But here's the thing, though, because we actually genuinely love God. How about that? But here's the thing, though, because we actually genuinely love God. Like you realize that, because we all, because I'm looking at some of my friends who I love them, I still hang out with them, still talk to them, you know, visit them, all this different stuff. But like they're like yeah, I don't bind to God anymore and I was like fair, I get it, like I legit.
Speaker 3:I tried to run away a few times.
Speaker 2:And I was like no, I like legit get it. And you know, I remember thinking back in a day I would be like praying on my face interceding tears. They're going to hell. And now I'm just like I trust the Holy Spirit. Hell, and now I'm just like I trust the Holy Spirit. It'll work out. Like, literally, that has been more.
Speaker 2:I feel more of a confidence in the ability of the Lord to actually lead your life and keep you than I ever have my entire life, Because I'm like life is super hard and if you, at 56 years old on your deathbed I don't know why I chose 56, Jesus, that's not that far away If you 85, if you 85 on your deathbed and you're like Jesus, I love you, Amen. Like literally, that's all I got. I was like I don't care anymore, Like I don't. I don't care what it looks like, I don't have an expectation or a idea of what your faith walk should look like. I legit don't, Because I'm trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing. I'd be able to tap dancing sometimes Like I hope this works. You know what I mean. I'm trying to figure stuff out for myself and, like piggybacking off of Robert, I literally have no answers, but I feel the most clarity without knowledge that I ever have my entire life.
Speaker 1:So good the most clarity without knowledge. And it's like you again, I think this is that rootedness in the motherland of the just truth is embodied we. We know truth. Right, we already know truth and the idea that, like you, would need clarity to to get to it, I think was the trick. And the trick is that truth is very like. Truth is very conspicuous when you come.
Speaker 1:Even people that we were supposed to be, like they probably going to hell, was like wait a minute, but that song is saying something more than we know. Or wait a minute, like we're not supposed to be, like they probably going to hell. It's like wait a minute, but that song is saying something more than we know. Or wait a minute, we're not supposed to be reading this or watching this, but there's something more going on here and I'm starting to find that, really, if you love truth, I don't see how people who love the truth do not come into contact with each other at one point or another, even if they don't call God, even if they don't even call God by the same name, like that's the part that's a trip.
Speaker 1:To me is like the. I think the hardest part or the scariest part, the part that felt illegal was the exclusivism for me Right? So like the exclusivism of Christianity. If I don't talk about it in that way, I am unfaithful and again, like Rob was saying, like this I wanting to be faithful and wanting to be a friend of Jesus, and like I'm not fitting to be out here lying on Jesus, like at that point in my life, and then it's just like Jesus is like I'm used to being lied on. It's all good, just do your best and be honest. You know, like it's literally like all you can do and I'm feeling this real call. But it just feels really sweet to feel like the black church is where I fell in love with God and the black church is where I've landed Right In terms of that way of framing God. It just feels very beautiful and kind of God to say, yeah, you belong here and all of you gets to come this time. That feels really special to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was thinking that, as you were talking like one thing that I've done in my reclamation process is divest and resign from being on God's defense team.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And the peace that covers your mind. Come on, listen first off. The benefits suck for being on God's defense team. There's no 401k, it's ragged. The 401k is not headed like that. I think for me, in hearing both of your stories as you're talking about this, call back what I realized I always had a spirituality that never fit inside of a church, so I didn't grow up in the church, I grew up as an atheist, but there was a spirituality that I was reaching for and a lot of it was around fantasy and imagination and where are we going? What happens when people like, make good things together, like. Those were thoughts I was having at six years old, and so for me, a lot of my reclamation process has been finding God and Star Trek discovery, or comic books, or finding it in literature. I love you know, right here, sitting right here, toni Morrison's book Beloved. That is a sacred text. I find God there. I truly do. I'll read that clearing scene.
Speaker 2:Just not the movie, right yeah, oh not the movie.
Speaker 3:No, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm a punk. Sorry about the clearance.
Speaker 1:I would love to watch that. Snuck watching it and had nightmares.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but the clearing scene when Baby Suggs Holy, invites All of the black men and women and children In there and says, laugh, cry, dance. You know, I find God there, right? And so I realized my imagination was always the avenue, that I had to conceive of something beyond myself, and God sanctifies that rather than tells me not to do that or tries to only locate it in the Bible.
Speaker 1:That's really good.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. I'm sorry, no no, I was about to ask you to jump in Because I was going to say to me that's liberation, because I am a sci-fi nerd. Okay, like anything and everything, sci-fi fantasy, like I love it, I eat it up and I always have and I've always had a really big imagination.
Speaker 3:And when you're in white evangelicalism they leash you like it's because they don't have an imagination themselves and it's corrupt and morally bankrupt.
Speaker 2:But go ahead, yeah no, I totally agree with you, because I can sit and think of for hours on space, like you, tell me something that would make me weep. I'm talking about feel the presence of the Lord, the stars. Bro, I'm gone Like I, I, I would be like, oh, god is real. Do you know what I mean? The cosmos. But then it's more than that and it's like what if there were other beings, like what if this? And then what if they built this? And I don't see that as ungodly, unholy, unrighteous. Do you know what I mean? Cause then cause then. What do you do with CS Lewis?
Speaker 1:Well, that's the that is so that's about as far as they go.
Speaker 2:Yes, I know, know, but when you start actually reading his stuff, his stuff, some of his stuff is a little wild, and so what I don't understand is why the yeah, yes, I do yeah, you do well no, no, because I I know what it is.
Speaker 2:I was like we as a people are so freaking powerful that if they were to allow us to use our imaginations, we would rule them. And why would we need like? Why would they want us to rule them? So now let's suppress. Because here's the thing we know this, we know that slavery wasn't just a physical thing. We know it was a mental thing. But even within the mental, it was the imagination. We weren't even allowed to dream of freedom. We weren't even allowed to dream of freedom.
Speaker 1:We weren't even allowed, did it anyway right, like I remember reading this book.
Speaker 2:It was one of my favorite books as a kid, and I don't quote, I can't remember the name right now, of course, but it was about these slaves in the field and they were working in the field and all of a sudden they begin to fly away and it's I mean, it's a kid's book and it's such beautiful illustrations and just I mean the imagery of being able to fly away. And I understand, okay, well, they wanted to get away from slavery and all sorts of stuff. But I was like no, it was the imagination, it was the freedom of their imaginations that we're not allowed in evangelicalism and it'sism, and it's very, it's very unfortunate, but I think that's why we exited and I think that's where the artists you know how they, oh, you know how certain groups we were a part of talked about, um, talked about, you know, uh, the artists, the black artists that are going to come forth and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:I hate you, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:We can do a part.
Speaker 1:No let's just keep going.
Speaker 3:I do want to say to that, like I think you know Emily Towns talks about, like the imagination of white supremacy and whiteness, and right, Like it's not able to bring forth generativity because all the fears and the supremacy is wed up in that thing, Right. And so part of the bondage of white evangelicalism is you can't even conceive of how free you can be. You don't even know the life that you could have. And I'll give this. One example is I remember you know a dear brother, Trey, a couple of years ago posted on Twitter yeah, shout out to Trey. He posted on Twitter this idea of I can't wait till we're really free because God never designed us to work. And when I tell you, the white pastors, the leaders, people were in them comments so mad, it was the anger for me, right, Like they had all. No, if we don't work, what will we do all?
Speaker 2:day. What do you mean? I will quit my job right now.
Speaker 3:They were saying like you're a heretic, how can you be a pastor? No, god wants people to work. They could not even conceive in the spirit of their mind life beyond work.
Speaker 1:I can't See, man, the amount of rage towards rest. That is a very bad symptom of whiteness. Like to be that enraged about rest I mean, just think, as a pastor but like what is sometimes called a shepherd huh, say it.
Speaker 2:The scriptures say rest like I don't know.
Speaker 1:You know good right now the bible is just. It is a whole nother thing these days. But listen, the police didn't even do what it said I mean. So you know they're not reading the Bible like that. There's no way on. Like the amount of imagine being that mad about somebody saying we were created for rest. Just imagine being in charge of people's souls in one way or another, people's spiritual reality in one way or another, and you get that mad about the prospect of rest. Everybody in your care is in danger.
Speaker 3:And we were, we were. Can you think about I want y'all to localize when you actually stepped away from the institution of white evangelicalism. Didn't you feel tired? Weren't you like literally I mean physically it took me years to recover, Like I was so tired for years and I realized it's exactly what you're saying to me. People put that yoke on me because they had that framework of God that God is an enemy. It's not just rest y'all, god is an enemy of pleasure.
Speaker 1:Indeed.
Speaker 3:Like God is antithetical to pleasure, and serving God is opposite. You know, I'm thinking of Age of Pleasure, Janelle Monae right now. But like pleasure is this demonized thing that we're not meant to possess.
Speaker 1:We should just you got me thinking about Janet Jackson, the principles of pleasure.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry. I was thinking of Pleasure Principle and it was coming in my mind right.
Speaker 2:I only listen to Christian music and gospel music and gospel music. So, see, there you go. See, you know what. On that point, I remember being in ministry and, uh, someone saying to me, one of the leaders saying you'll rest when you die, and and I was like what the hell? That's the only time we get to rest and that was the reality that they lived in, which is why a lot of them are. Even their physical frames are tore up.
Speaker 3:It's giving chattel slavery babes. It's giving chattel slave like you can rest when you die. Is giving master slave chattel slave like you can rest when you die. Is giving master slave chattel slavery in the sweet by and by. You can rest no.
Speaker 2:Jesus I mean this particular person did suckle at the teat of the master, so you know.
Speaker 1:She's on the porch fixing the show, mister, listen, okay, I'm thinking a lot about something that you said, rob, this idea of obviously, people not wanting to rest but the, the weariness that you feel when you leave, I was thinking about when you named it. I I was reminded of the actual feeling and you know, I felt that feeling when I left ministry and evangelical spaces, when I left my ex-husband and when I left toxic jobs. I felt the same feeling of like throwing off heavy garments and being exhausted but also delighted, like like being able to breathe. And to me, I'm feeling like, I'm wondering about folks who are like right on the edge of cause.
Speaker 1:One of the things I loved about when Is the Lie was like we were grappling, like we were in the beginning stages of this grappling, and those conversations are so precious to me because you can hear like us clinging to God and also being honest about life being hard and shit not being fair. And so when I think about it now, a couple of years out from then, at this point now, you know, a couple of years out from then, at this point, you know all of us are a little more settled, we're a little more at ease. So I'm thinking about people on the precipice of like, where we were right, who might be listening. What would you say to those people? How would you encourage them in terms of moving forward?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say one. It's a marathon, not a sprint. I didn't have the vision to know how deep I was and how locked up my mind was. So it me, and that is like a bible text for me, and it's like been an anchor and coming all the way out, like my heart is not peripheral to me, at least right like to me, and so part of my, my unfolding, unbecoming and becoming again. It's like no, that pleasure principle, that who am I really? My heart isn't peripheral to me and I gave my heart to white evangelicalism in ways that I'm ashamed of, but it's okay, I'm finding it. You know I'm finding it. You know, yeah, that's what I would say. That'm finding it. You know I'm finding it. You know, yeah, that's what I would say.
Speaker 1:That's so good. How about you, Fran?
Speaker 2:I think I think there are a few things that kind of roll in my head, cause I'm like sitting here really trying to think what would I say to someone? And it would be be patient with yourself to someone, and it would be be patient with yourself acknowledge yourself, acknowledge your feelings, your thoughts, your, your, your, your fears, your, your anger, your hatred, your, you know. Usually in christianity it's like don't wallow in those things and just you know, give them all to the Lord, don't give them to the Lord, sit in them. I want to say sit there and be okay with not being okay and being okay all at the same time, and then understand that there is a real grief process Like this isn't like a going back to what Robert said. It's a marathon, not a sprint. This is grief. Like you are going to have waves and waves of grief. You're going to feel shame, you're going to feel anger, you're going to feel hatred, you're going to like we, you're, you're going. You're going to feel like something is dying.
Speaker 2:Um, so good, but it is dying it is dying but but the whole idea of the resurrection and and there's something about the resurrection it wasn't, you know, when Jesus died resurrection and all that stuff, like think about it, like that it really will be a resurrection. It would be like the Phoenix coming out of the ashes kind of aspect. Resurrection. It would be like the Phoenix coming out of the ashes kind of aspect. But it's, it's a, it's a marathon.
Speaker 2:You gotta be able to face the grief, and a lot of my friends that I've known have run from it instead of running into it, and when they've run from it they've lost themselves further and they don't know where they are now. And so I think I would just say, confronted, have one to two friends I'm talking about one to two Like that would look at you and be like I know and it'd be okay and will hold space for you and will be that safe space for you. I think those are the things, because I'm thinking about what's gotten me through, literally, is the grief. Going through the grief, the therapy, the friendships, the process, and it's been, it's been what, seven years now and I'm just starting to feel okay, like it's not a, it's a marathon, it really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm thinking about when you're talking about resurrection, and one thing that I think stayed with me was the way that passages used to pop in my head, but this, that first Corinthians three passage about it is the incorruptible things that are raised, and thinking about how this, these waves of grief like break over us and they wash away false selves, right like they wash away ways of being that were not authentic. And if, if they're not authentic, I don't, I don't think that they're holy, and so I'm wondering about like this process of letting these waves break over us is actually so good for us, because you actually end up finding out like who you actually are, and so it feels very much like a resurrection, absolutely. It feels like being raised to new life and raised in a different way, you know, like you're just in a different. You're a different person.
Speaker 2:And that's okay. And I think that's what we get afraid of is like, because I remember being like, well, I don't hear God's voice like I used to. And then it's not that I questioned whether well, some things I questioned was Jesus, but you know, some things really was okay. But I'm in a different place in my relationship with God, just like if I was married I'd be in a different place with my spouse. You're not the same person you were when you first met. You're a different individual and you have to be OK with that growth and that difference.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to sneak this in here. Like you know, like, as I was listening to both of you, I think what has helped me is being is meeting myself with curiosity. For so long I was trying to be, you know, essentially I was trying to be a white man, like let's just be clear Like it wasn't. I was trying to be many things, but that's not who I am. And so now, part of that resurrection and that washing that you're talking about Tamiz, washing that you're talking about Tamiz I've had to be so gracious to myself and I told myself 15 years ago, you don't know who you are yet, and you?
Speaker 3:know, even in the past seven, eight years. I'm like you don't know yet you know and so which feels embarrassing because I'm 40 and I should, but I feel like I'm just now. I love the skin I'm in. I love who I have become. I actually even love the past iterations of myself. The funny thing is the Robert from 15 years ago, 20 years ago, he would hate who I've become. I have grace for that person too, right, like I know you would hate me, you would think that I'm heretical, you would think that I'm not serious. And, baby, I love that about you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Like I love you even there, right, and so making peace with each younger Robert has really helped me to say I love the skin I'm in today. I really do. I'll be in here. Beyonce just came out with a new song. I was going to sneak it in. I was in here. When I tell you, I was in here line dancing this morning. The funny thing is I was feeling God's presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when Beyonce was singing.
Speaker 1:I don't know about all that first of all, actually let me do this live on on the air. Okay, let's wrap this up, baby, I'm doing this live and on the air. You two clown me over the queen. I just want to say I'm taking it back.
Speaker 3:Y'all. No, tamiz, don't lie to these folks, don't do that Y'all told me Beyonce was Illuminati. We didn't say that. We did say you were doing too much Hold on.
Speaker 1:Alexa's mad Hold on. Alexa's mad Hold on. Talked about the Beyonce, so Alexa came up. What was you saying?
Speaker 3:now, fran, tell the truth and shame the devil. Shame, it wasn't just Beyonce, although we did.
Speaker 2:Lauryn Hill. I've always been on Lauryn Hill.
Speaker 3:I love.
Speaker 1:Lauryn Hill unplugged.
Speaker 3:We talk a lot it's cause that album sucked. But first of all, rob, sorry, sorry, let's wrap this up. So where do we go from here, friends?
Speaker 2:oh wait, I do want to say one thing, and it's more of a, it's not a challenge, but it's more of like a comfort thing. I want to say to people who are coming out of evangelicalism and trying to figure out everything it's OK if you can't read the Bible, it's OK if you take a break, it's OK if because I remember there was a time where I would open the passages of the scriptures that I've always loved, you know, and I would literally hear the voice of different pastors and leaders and I could not hear God's voice or my voice and I would just cry and I would have anxiety attacks. It's okay if you can't read the Bible right now. Let yourself off the hook.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm going to sneak one more in there too there is life after white evangelicalism. There's a whole world out there, and I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:you know, it was scary when I was leaving, and we're talking about beliefs, body consciousness, all these things that we suffered exhaustion, but, but in order to leave, we left community, we left people that we would have called you know, our ride or die friends. We love people that we mourn to this day. Right, there's a whole world out there to experience and explore, and people who will love you, who you have not met yet, and I wish somebody would have told me like, baby is scary right now. There's a whole world out here.
Speaker 1:It's better to be alive than alone yes that's a jump.
Speaker 1:So let me say this, friends, I'll be corny. So just thinking about how long we've known each other and thinking of how many different seasons and like bank accounts, right like that we had to walk just seeing each other, just seeing each other in all of these different spaces, I just feel like saying, just offering gratitude to God for the faithfulness, because it's something to sit across from your friends and y'all look moisturized and happy and in your skin, and it's like I've seen you in other places, in other seasons. I've seen you be pained and hurt and angry, and so to see how, how good we look, we look good. I'm going to just say that we look really good and I'm proud of us and I'm just really glad that that, uh, like we had Christina on here and Dr. Dr Cleveland said not everybody makes it to this point, right, as you resurrect. So to have people there every time you resurrect, those are good friends, you know. So I'm just, I'm just grateful that I know you and that you came on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Tamish.
Speaker 1:And I was right about Beyonce.
Speaker 3:Never, girl, stop this recording before we beat you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to pick your money in your heart is donate to subcluster, ink and clear the path for black students today.